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This hand happened at the last two tables of a six max Stars 55+5. Player jakz101 had been raising relentlessly and I had already reraised him once (with a strong hand though) even though we had only been at the same table for probably 10-20 hands. I assumed he was a LAG player and did not know at the time of the hand if he was a weak or strong player. I have 19 BB's in the BB(800) and he makes a standard 3x raise to 2400. Given his raising nearly every hand and our SB and BB positions I put hiis range on literally any two cards. I reraised half my stack (which may be a mistake) instead of shoving just because I really didn't think it mattered. I thought I sent the message that I'm obviously committed but also was hoping to make my hand look stronger than it really was since I only had A9 (even though I don't view my play as a bluff because I felt I was way ahead of his range). I also thought it might possibly induce a weird stop n go play or to give my opponent an opportunity to make what I think would be a horrendous mistake to call this reraise and fold on the flop to me since there is so much money in the pot preflop. OK so here's the hand:
*********** # 214 **************
pokerstars Game #12388704415: Tournament #62647167, $50+$5 Hold'em No
Limit - Level X (400/800) - 2007/10/02 - 00:56:24 (ET)
Table '62647167 20' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: fltombo (15570 in chips)
Seat 2: Vanessabelle (43477 in chips)
Seat 3: Fljobo (19083 in chips)
Seat 5: jakz101 (62200 in chips)
Seat 6: the fiend 34 (16200 in chips)
fltombo: posts the ante 75
Vanessabelle: posts the ante 75
Fljobo: posts the ante 75
jakz101: posts the ante 75
the fiend 34: posts the ante 75
jakz101: posts small blind 400
the fiend 34: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to the fiend 34 [9c Ac]
fltombo: folds
Vanessabelle: folds
Fljobo: folds
jakz101: raises 1600 to 2400
the fiend 34: raises 5600 to 8000
jakz101: calls 5600
*** FLOP *** [4s 8c 7s]
jakz101: checks
the fiend 34: bets 8125 and is all-in
jakz101: calls 8125
*** TURN *** [4s 8c 7s] [Kc]
*** RIVER *** [4s 8c 7s Kc] [5d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jakz101: shows [8h Kd] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
the fiend 34: shows [9c Ac] (high card Ace)
the fiend 34 said, "wtf"
jakz101 said, "gg"
jakz101 collected 32625 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 32625 | Rake 0
Board [4s 8c 7s Kc 5d]
Seat 1: fltombo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Vanessabelle folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Fljobo (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: jakz101 (small blind) showed [8h Kd] and won (32625) with two
pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 6: the fiend 34 (big blind) showed [9c Ac] and lost with high card
Ace
I questioned this play after it was over and he basically told me how good he was and learned that this player jakz101 plays for a living and according to OPR has a very impressive profit in 529 games with 11 wins and 32 final tables which shows he didn't make his profits by getting lucky with one big score (although his sample size isn't that huge). After learning this I am in shock and wonder if his play can actually be justified? I do understand that even the greatest player in the world may make a bad play every now and then, but this player staunchly defended this particular play. He said that he made a sound mathematical decision to call my reriase from 2400 to 8000 because he knew I was committed (and I was) to give him the rest of my stack if he hits with his k8. He said that there was no way he would have called my all in if I shove preflop and also said if he missed the flop his plan was to check fold.
In my opinion, the way he played this hand is a disaster. Although he may be somewhat close mathematically if he's strictly calling for the chance to hit a pair since he has the implied odds of my last 8k if he hits, this does not even consider the possibility of if he hits a pair and bets the rest of my stack that his pair is even good or would hold. I would think that the fact that the overwhelming chance that his pair of 8's and maybe even K is no good if it hits and the fact that even if he hits his hand he still has to hold for the turn and river would make this a clear fold for him. The only way I can see justifying his play (and to me this is even a longshot) would be he had a read on me of being a huge nit with no understanding of the game that would fold on the flop if I missed and he shoved. He told me though that his 100% plan was to check fold if he missed or to get it in if I guess he hits an 8 or K or some kind of draw.
My questions to you all are the following:
Can you justify his play?
Did I make a mistake not shoving preflop? (generally speaking in this stack situation)
Did I make a mistake by not shoving preflop in this particular case? What I mean is if I could see his cards and knew his plan for the hand don't I want him to call me preflop so he can check fold the majority of the time he misses instead of shoving any pair hit....or would I get more value out of the long run by just taking it down preflop?
Thanks for any responses and hopefully this hand can generate some interesting discussion. -
He should have folded and you should have shoved. His logic makes sense, he did get you to shove with A high.
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eric crain was he the guy mixing it up at the USPC from last year i think? it was on espn, shaniac made a sick call vs him?
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his stack size justifies the play in his eyes. I wouldn't give up 1/8th of my stack but I think he wants to try and get lucky and get rid of a player.. U got to question ur play with a9. I he hits just so gg and move on
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Tough Break Fiend. I think your mistake is not shoving preflop with a guy with his stack who is loose. You only want to raise with made hands such as 10-10 or up because you said he was hyper agressive and had a huge stack. If you were first to act after the flop, I wouldn't mind it and your idea was to shove the flop no matter what hits but he was first to act. When an aggressive player checks a flop with that much money out there, and you have ace high danger signals have to be going off in your head. I understand you were committed but why put yourself to a diffucult decision post flop if you put yourself ahead of his range just shove preflop unless you have a made hand against super aggressive players. Just my two cents. Good Luck Tonight!.
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1. You're not checking behind on this flop. You committed half your stack (IMO should've shoved), and you're going to commit the rest whatever the flop is.
2. He made a call I wouldn't make pre and even with his stack I would say it's a bad call. Anyone knows you're getting the rest of the stack, and flat calling OOP with K8 is mind-numbing IMO.
If you were the only one who reraised him earlier, he may have thought you were popping him in position to keep him honest and put you on a wide range. You also left chips behind, which may have read to him like you were giving yourself room to fold.
Even with these lame justifications, I think he made a bad call pre. You also could've helped yourself by shoving tho. -
#1) he is very loose
#2) He has you 3 to 1 in chips
If he loses he is no longer chip leader, yet barely in 2nd so he likes the risk here. When he wins he now has 2x the chips of 2nd place - now he loves the risk here. -
You definitely have to shove pre-flop. He can call you because:
- You gave him almost 2:1 on the call.
- He has a big enough stack to where losing this hand still leaves him with plenty of chips.
Based on the kind of player you've typed him as, I see little chance of him folding pre-flop here. A tighter player would lay it down.
Did you really wanna see a flop with A-9 anyway? If you're dominated, chalk it up to bad luck and hope to suck out like everyone else ;) -
You need to push pf. The raise you made looks like you might be keeping enough to fold (although you are committed), and to reduce his pot odds. A weak bet makes the possibility of K high being good when he has a big stack and the opportunity to knock another player out. Also, while pushing with A9 on that flop after the pf action isn't a bad thing, you aren't going to have such an easy decision like that very often. Push PF and make him make the mistake.
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