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I got ABUSED for this call.....what do you think?

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  1. thearthurdog thearthurdog is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 3:43am)

    I'm 12 / 12 with 8 BBs left. When I saw my hand I never for a second imagined folding to a shove.

    After the hand, 3 players (who were all good, long term winning players), including the shover, abused me (which was quite funny).

    What do you think? Is this as much of an instacall as I thought it was? In last place with a great to hand to gamble I could never find a fold.

    #Game No : 9354285056
    ***** Hand History for Game 9354285056 *****
    NL Texas Hold'em $11 USD Buy-in Trny:52897410 Level:12 Blinds-Antes(1,500/3,000 -75) - Saturday, June 19, 22:30:43 AET 2010
    Table $2K Gtd Rebuy (1942710) Table #1 (Real Money)
    Seat 5 is the button
    Total number of players : 6/10
    Seat 6: RacingMX5 ( 86,501 )
    Seat 5: TJJ40 ( 84,713 )
    Seat 9: aa1uckYness ( 50,225 )
    Seat 2: catlicker222 ( 34,985 )
    Seat 7: thearthurdog ( 32,146 )
    Seat 1: zacken3 ( 40,878 )
    Trny:52897410 Level:13
    Blinds-Antes(2,000/4,000 -100)
    zacken3 posts ante [100]
    catlicker222 posts ante [100]
    TJJ40 posts ante [100]
    RacingMX5 posts ante [100]
    thearthurdog posts ante [100]
    aa1uckYness posts ante [100]
    ** Dealing down cards **
    Dealt to thearthurdog [ Th Jh ]
    aa1uckYness folds
    zacken3 folds
    catlicker222 is all-In [34,885]
    TJJ40 folds
    RacingMX5 folds
    thearthurdog is all-In [28,046]
    ** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, 6d, 5s ]
    ** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
    ** Dealing River ** [ Ts ]
    thearthurdog shows [ Th, Jh ]three of a kind, Tens.
    catlicker222 shows [ 3c, 3d ]two pairs, Tens and Threes.
    catlicker222 wins 2,839 chips from the side pot 1 with two pairs, Tens and Threes.
    thearthurdog wins 66,692 chips from the main pot with three of a kind, Tens.
    Game #9354295307 starts.
    Edited By: thearthurdog Jun 20th, 2010 at 04:02 AM
  2. MikeyRy MikeyRy is offline still fat

    Massapequa, NY
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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 3:45am) in reply to thearthurdog

    looks fine imo.
  3. Passiveplay Passiveplay is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 3:57am) in reply to MikeyRy

    I'd fold, but not abuse worthy. You're short but everyone is and you should be jamming not calling, you still have a stack where noone at the table can call you light.
     
  4. coolhandkev coolhandkev is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 3:58am) in reply to Passiveplay

    It's a great hand to shove with, not a great spot to call a shove with. I fold for sure.
  5. thearthurdog thearthurdog is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 4:01am) in reply to coolhandkev

    Don't know if it makes any difference, but I've just realised I was 12 / 12 (not 6 / 6).
    Thread Starter
  6. coolhandkev coolhandkev is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 4:03am) in reply to thearthurdog

    Put it this way. If I was the one who shoved the 33 and got called and saw JT flip over, the first thing I would say is, "What the hell?". It's just a strange hand to be calling with.
  7. xxd33pxx xxd33pxx is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 4:08am) in reply to coolhandkev

    pretty bad call, you are so rarely ahead and flipping at best.
    1
  8. thearthurdog thearthurdog is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 4:10am) in reply to xxd33pxx

    Okay, maybe I'm learning something today. I guess being 12 / 12 and supershort I was ready to gamble.

    What would people call with in this spot?
    Thread Starter
  9. EyeKnows EyeKnows is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 4:15am) in reply to thearthurdog

    I am wondering how we got this low and didn't have a better place to shove than waiting until we are down to 8 BBs and calling off w JTs? I'd rather shove 64o than call w JTs.
  10. thearthurdog thearthurdog is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 4:18am) in reply to EyeKnows

    I lost half my stack almost right before.
    Thread Starter
  11. funnygut funnygut is offline gone hollywood

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 4:22am) in reply to thearthurdog

    Ok first whats with that HH? Are blinds 1500/3k/75 or 2k/4k/100? Either way lol @ the ante size, and either way it's a fold. Calling range is gonna be a little read and game flow dependent, but id imagine something like 55+ A8s+ ATo+ KQ.
     
  12. thearthurdog thearthurdog is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 4:26am) in reply to funnygut

    Yeah I just noticed that 'issue' in the HH (weird). It is 4k / 2k / 100 and yes they are pitiful little antes at party poker.
    Thread Starter
  13. Infaulable Infaulable is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 4:29am) in reply to thearthurdog

    you were 12/12 but I think more relevant is what were his vpip/pfr #s. His #s would be my deciding factor with this holding as to whether I decided to make this call if I thought he was shoving light. Did you ship it?
  14. NetFan44 NetFan44 is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 4:33am) in reply to Infaulable

    you're just gambling, and you're never ahead. there really isn't that much else to discuss here.
  15. thearthurdog thearthurdog is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 4:50am) in reply to Infaulable

     
    Originally Posted by Infaulable View Post

    you were 12/12 but I think more relevant is what were his vpip/pfr #s. His #s would be my deciding factor with this holding as to whether I decided to make this call if I thought he was shoving light. Did you ship it?

    I don't use Pokertracker (assuming that is what you use) but he had been extremely active.
    Edited By: thearthurdog Jun 20th, 2010 at 04:51 AM
    Thread Starter
  16. MYBLUEDOG MYBLUEDOG is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 4:56am) in reply to thearthurdog

    Seat 1: zacken3 ( 40,878 )
    Seat 2: catlicker222 ( 34,985 )
    Seat 5: TJJ40 ( 84,713 ) - Btn
    Seat 6: RacingMX5 ( 86,501 ) - sb post 2000
    Seat 7: thearthurdog ( 32,146 ) - bb post 4000
    Seat 9: aa1uckYness ( 50,225 )

    (Antes 6*100) + (blinds 6000) + (32046 push) = 38646. Thearturdog has to call 28046 (he posted bb). Pot odds 38646:28046 or 1.38:1 He needs to have 42% equity to make the play profitable.

    Seeing that catlicker only has little over 8bb to start; he could be pushing very wide (most Ax, Kx, the better Qx's and any pair) FTA. Under these circumstanses. JhTh is getting the correct odds to call off short if he's face with playing to win and not blinding off.

    If Thearturdog will have almost no Fold equity after he passes through the blinds with only (26K behind), roughly 6bbs.

    Pokerstove:

    equity
    Hand 0: 43.172% { JhTh }
    Hand 1: 56.828% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q7s+, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, JTo }

    Actual Equity:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 53.246% { JTs }
    Hand 1: 46.754% { 33 }

    Takes a nit to fold in this situation trying to ladder climb for extra pay-out.
    Edited By: MYBLUEDOG Jun 20th, 2010 at 05:04 AM
  17. rivverkiller rivverkiller is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 5:27am) in reply to MYBLUEDOG

    Assuming he's not a total nit it's probably a +cev call so unless it's an ICM blunder I don't think it's bad at all.
     
  18. supra1988t supra1988t is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 5:33am) in reply to rivverkiller

    Bad call IMO.
    649 
  19. rivverkiller rivverkiller is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 5:36am) in reply to supra1988t

     
    Originally Posted by supra1988t View Post

    Bad call IMO.

    why?
     
  20. supra1988t supra1988t is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 6:06am) in reply to rivverkiller

     
    Originally Posted by rivverkiller View Post

    why?

    total pot size --> 32,046 + 6,600 = 38,646

    pot odds --> 38,646/28,046 = 1.378:1

    We need 42.1% equity vs his range. 1/(1.378+1)

    Throw a generous shoving range in stove and you're getting 42.64% equity making this nuetral cEV and -$EV. If the shoving range is any tighter then its -cEV.

    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

    2,623,249,728 games 4.190 secs 626,073,920 games/sec

    Board:
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 42.638% 41.05% 01.59% 1076747292 41766244.00 { JTs }
    Hand 1: 57.362% 55.77% 01.59% 1462969948 41766244.00 { 22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A2o+, K8o+, Q9o+, JTo }
    649 
  21. rivverkiller rivverkiller is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 6:13am) in reply to supra1988t

    OP says villain is a good longterm winning player. If we give him 30% shoving range we get
    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

    614,717,136 games 1.307 secs 470,326,806 games/sec

    Board:
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 43.874% 41.94% 01.93% 257837394 11866366.50 { JdTd }
    Hand 1: 56.126% 54.20% 01.93% 333147009 11866366.50 { 22+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }

    Presumabley he's shoving wider then that with 11 bbs in the cu.
    Edited By: rivverkiller Jun 20th, 2010 at 06:14 AM
     
  22. supra1988t supra1988t is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 6:31am) in reply to rivverkiller

    I fucked up the pot size by counting the bb twice::::

    total pot size --> 32,046 + 2,600 = 34,646

    pot odds --> 34,646/28,046 = 1.235:1

    We need 44.7% equity vs his range. 1/(1.235+1) so its still -EV with your range.

    Your range is more realistic for a winning reg but even if we had a 2% edge vs his range, don't you think we're better off passing on such a high variance spot, especially with pay jumps? Shoving almost atc otb is just as +ev but so much lower variance because we're not garaunteed a showdown.
    649 
  23. MYBLUEDOG MYBLUEDOG is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 7:23am) in reply to supra1988t

     

    don't you think we're better off passing on such a high variance spot, especially with pay jumps? Shoving almost atc otb is just as +ev but so much lower variance because we're not garaunteed a showdown.

    Why are you wanting to ladder climb for one or two buy-in pay jump. If you take the coin-flip and win; you have the opportunity to get the big pay-out for top three and chance to win. That's why most of us play: "TO WIN." If you fold to an active player or someone who should be pushing wide (8bbs deep);trying to win.

    You concede winning because you are left with 6bb or less when the blinds go up and you have no fold equity. You are better off taking the suited connector and going for some chips.
  24. Passiveplay Passiveplay is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 7:25am) in reply to MYBLUEDOG

     
    Originally Posted by MYBLUEDOG View Post

    Why are you wanting to ladder climb for one or two buy-in pay jump. If you take the coin-flip and win; you have the opportunity to get the big pay-out for top three and chance to win. That's why most of us play: "TO WIN." If you fold to an active player or someone who should be pushing wide (8bbs deep);trying to win.

    You concede winning because you are left with 6bb or less when the blinds go up and you have no fold equity. You are better off taking the suited connector and going for some chips.

    But given the stack sizes you can fold and not lose any fold equity for shoves.
     
  25. chiptaker31 chiptaker31 is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 7:31am) in reply to Passiveplay

    i fold, and find a spot to shove. don't think its a bad call. but i'd rather be shipping j10 than calling of with it.
  26. Vekked Vekked is offline

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    Jun 20th, 2010 (6/20/2010 1:04pm) in reply to chiptaker31

    You can probably call or fold here every single time and in the long run it wouldn't really matter much... it's just so close, with regular sized antes it's a definite call, with no antes it's a definite fold... if supra's numbers are right it's probably a fold but def not a huge leak or anything.
     1
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