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I mean I guess I am just confused...

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  1. tomkim tomkim is offline

    Ocala, FL
    United States

    Posts: 83
    Joined: Dec 06

    Jan 10th, 2011 (1/10/2011 4:56pm)

    I 3 bet preflop and then board seems favorable so I move in after flop and this Jackass calls with third pair... I think this is HORRIBLE by him ... am I wrong?? Please anyone help with Advice... My thinking here may be what is my short coming and why I don't advance to winning just cashing... I would never make the play he did here... Is this a short coming of mine not to see this play as good?? I have NO CLUE!!!

    Stage #516371488 Tourney ID 5937095 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit 7,000 - 2011-01-10 11:49:44 (ET)
    Table: 12 (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer
    Seat 1 - HERBIE2 (143,740 in chips)
    Seat 2 - ATEOMORALES (50,237 in chips)
    Seat 3 - LIQUIDSOUL11 (67,630 in chips)
    Seat 4 - DJFERTIG (163,042 in chips)
    Seat 5 - PENSIONPLAN (87,783 in chips)
    Seat 8 - PHANTOMCARGO (64,977 in chips)
    Seat 9 - JOEFRAMER111 (225,331 in chips)
    HERBIE2 - Ante 700
    ATEOMORALES - Ante 700
    LIQUIDSOUL11 - Ante 700
    DJFERTIG - Ante 700
    PENSIONPLAN - Ante 700
    PHANTOMCARGO - Ante 700
    JOEFRAMER111 - Ante 700
    LIQUIDSOUL11 - Posts small blind 3,500
    DJFERTIG - Posts big blind 7,000
    *** POCKET CARDS ***
    Dealt to DJFERTIG [Qh Ad]
    PENSIONPLAN - Folds
    PHANTOMCARGO - Folds
    JOEFRAMER111 - Raises 28,000 to 28,000
    HERBIE2 - Folds
    ATEOMORALES - Folds
    LIQUIDSOUL11 - Folds
    DJFERTIG - Raises 43,000 to 50,000
    JOEFRAMER111 - Calls 22,000
    *** FLOP *** [8h 2s 9c]
    DJFERTIG - All-In 112,342
    JOEFRAMER111 - Calls 112,342
    *** TURN *** [8h 2s 9c] [3h]
    *** RIVER *** [8h 2s 9c 3h] [8c]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    DJFERTIG - Shows [Qh Ad] (One pair, eights)
    JOEFRAMER111 - Shows [7s 7h] (Two Pair, eights and sevens)
    JOEFRAMER111 Collects 333,084 from main pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total Pot(333,084)
    Board [8h 2s 9c 3h 8c]
    Seat 1: HERBIE2 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
    Seat 2: ATEOMORALES (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
    Seat 3: LIQUIDSOUL11 (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
    Seat 4: DJFERTIG (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, eights [Qh Ad - B:8h,B:8c,P:Ad,P:Qh,B:9c]
    Seat 5: PENSIONPLAN Folded on the POCKET CARDS

    I need to understand this type of play ... if it is a good play... I have No Idea how it could be a good play......
  2. luckierno7 luckierno7 is offline

    Posts: 723
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    Jan 10th, 2011 (1/10/2011 11:29pm) in reply to tomkim

    well it was your fault- this wpouldnt have happened if u shoved preflop like u were3 supposed 2 instead of puttin there 1/3 of your stack and shoving any flop
    there was sth like 1/4 of your stack on the table already
    why not jam and get it instead of pricing him in on the flop
    well his call isnt horrible either
    i dont call there- but i probably dont get in this spot anyway but his call is not awful like u say
    when u shove that low flop it looks exactly like this type of hand; ak aq..
    118 
  3. tomkim tomkim is offline

    Ocala, FL
    United States

    Posts: 83
    Joined: Dec 06

    Jan 11th, 2011 (1/11/2011 4:28am) in reply to luckierno7

     
    Originally Posted by luckierno7 View Post

    well it was your fault- this wpouldnt have happened if u shoved preflop like u were3 supposed 2 instead of puttin there 1/3 of your stack and shoving any flop
    there was sth like 1/4 of your stack on the table already
    why not jam and get it instead of pricing him in on the flop
    well his call isnt horrible either
    i dont call there- but i probably dont get in this spot anyway but his call is not awful like u say
    when u shove that low flop it looks exactly like this type of hand; ak aq..

    So after he Bets I should 3 bet Shove here?? Doesn't that create same problem? I think He calls shove pre if he will call with 3rd pair as he did. I think this is a BAD play and I guess I don't understand how what he did is acceptable... Do you think he folds 77 to a preflop shove?? It may be that is where I am falling down. Thanks for insight
    Thread Starter
  4. okse54 okse54 is offline

    New York, NY
    United States

    Posts: 3,692
    Joined: Nov 07

    Jan 11th, 2011 (1/11/2011 4:43am) in reply to tomkim

    sounds like your mostly confused by the post flop call he made.

    tbh his post flop call is completely standard

    on the flop there is 108,000 chips in the pot

    you shove 112,342

    so hes risking 112,342 to win 220,742 so he only needs to have 33.7% to make that preflop call.

    considering that AQ is in your range he should be calling 100% of the time. even if AQ+ is the worst of your non paired hands and the rest of your range was 88+ hed still have over 40% equity.

    the real question you should be asking is if he should be folding preflop.

    if AQ is the bottom of your 3betting range than he is supposed to make a fairly borderline fold.
     
  5. tomkim tomkim is offline

    Ocala, FL
    United States

    Posts: 83
    Joined: Dec 06

    Jan 11th, 2011 (1/11/2011 6:00am) in reply to okse54

    "sounds like your mostly confused by the post flop call he made"

    So Post flop he made a standard play even though he had third pair I mean how many hands is he losing to? I just thought with 3rd pair he was gambling to much... My misunderstanding may be my problem.... I guess I just Don't understand what you are meaning... It is 3rd pair. To much of a gamble for tourney life I would think... this may be my flawed thinking
    Thread Starter
  6. okse54 okse54 is offline

    New York, NY
    United States

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    Jan 11th, 2011 (1/11/2011 6:16am) in reply to tomkim

    your reraise preflop is extremely strong. which makes it unlikely that you ever have 9X or 8X type hands. the flop coming 982 is practically the same as if it came 632 and he was holding an over pr to the board. in fact you can argue that from his point of view it might even be slightly better that it came 982 since if he was giving you credit for 99 or 88 in your range it makes it a little less likely you have either of those

    basicly he most likely put you on a strong hand preflop. your range is probably something like TT+,AQ+. which means that any flop 9 and under misses your range regardless of if hes holding 3rd pair or an over pair.

    the actual categorization of his hand doesn't really matter, all that matters is how his hand plays against your likely holdings. a flop that comes 9 high is exactly the type of flop hes looking for with this hand and if he flatted it preflop he basicly has to stack off here.

    if he puts you on a range of TT+, AQ+ then he has 43.77% equity in the hand after the flop. with getting almost 2 to 1 on his money this is a fairly easy call.

    dont focus on the fact that he has "3rd pair". 3rd pair only matters when most of your range could consist of 1st or 2nd pr. but when your range is all over pairs and air, his 3rd pair plays like top pair
    Edited By: okse54 Jan 11th, 2011 at 06:16 AM
     
  7. jezzman30 jezzman30 is offline

    Australia

    Posts: 408
    Joined: Nov 08

    Jan 11th, 2011 (1/11/2011 12:11pm) in reply to okse54

     
    Originally Posted by okse54 View Post

    your reraise preflop is extremely strong. which makes it unlikely that you ever have 9X or 8X type hands. the flop coming 982 is practically the same as if it came 632 and he was holding an over pr to the board. in fact you can argue that from his point of view it might even be slightly better that it came 982 since if he was giving you credit for 99 or 88 in your range it makes it a little less likely you have either of those

    basicly he most likely put you on a strong hand preflop. your range is probably something like TT+,AQ+. which means that any flop 9 and under misses your range regardless of if hes holding 3rd pair or an over pair.

    the actual categorization of his hand doesn't really matter, all that matters is how his hand plays against your likely holdings. a flop that comes 9 high is exactly the type of flop hes looking for with this hand and if he flatted it preflop he basicly has to stack off here.

    if he puts you on a range of TT+, AQ+ then he has 43.77% equity in the hand after the flop. with getting almost 2 to 1 on his money this is a fairly easy call.

    dont focus on the fact that he has "3rd pair". 3rd pair only matters when most of your range could consist of 1st or 2nd pr. but when your range is all over pairs and air, his 3rd pair plays like top pair

    Always awesome to see someone (Other than graps) give some really good detailed help on here
  8. tomkim tomkim is offline

    Ocala, FL
    United States

    Posts: 83
    Joined: Dec 06

    Jan 11th, 2011 (1/11/2011 8:41pm) in reply to jezzman30

    Well I now understand why his Play makes perfect sense. This is why I ask these questions so as to get better and to better understand moves people are making and why.. Information is Power... Thak you for your insights and any more advice is Greatly appreciated
    Thread Starter
  9. TaMaHiTTeR TaMaHiTTeR is offline

    Fort Wayne, IN
    United States

    Posts: 15
    Joined: Dec 05

    Jan 12th, 2011 (1/12/2011 4:02am) in reply to tomkim

    I shove here pre all day,,you got like 23 bb's...he might call anyway but its more pressure on him,,he is the chip leader at your table.. his call is good, hes prolly puttin you on over cards and willing to stack you off with his hand thinking (or should I say knowing) hes ahead... why else would you jam any flop? idn,,,my opinion...im learning to....gl
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