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I need help with this one

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  1. kice32 kice32 is offline

    Posts: 864
    Joined: Dec 05

    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 1:47am)

    pokerstars Game #15535909117: Tournament #77445084, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIX (4000/8000) - 2008/02/25 - 02:29:08 (ET)
    Table '77445084 62' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 1: justcallin (299051 in chips)
    Seat 2: iacog4 (145087 in chips)
    Seat 3: scobud (415403 in chips)
    Seat 5: Hyeaces (238609 in chips)
    Seat 6: WaxTailor (202068 in chips)
    Seat 8: bartvd (108149 in chips)
    Seat 9: sprstoner (94154 in chips)
    justcallin: posts the ante 800
    iacog4: posts the ante 800
    scobud: posts the ante 800
    Hyeaces: posts the ante 800
    WaxTailor: posts the ante 800
    bartvd: posts the ante 800
    sprstoner: posts the ante 800
    Hyeaces: posts small blind 4000
    WaxTailor: posts big blind 8000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to iacog4 [Ks Tc]
    bartvd: folds
    sprstoner: folds
    justcallin: folds
    iacog4: raises 8000 to 16000
    scobud: folds
    Hyeaces: folds
    WaxTailor: calls 8000
    *** FLOP *** [6s Kc 3d]
    WaxTailor: checks
    iacog4: bets 16999
    WaxTailor: raises 23001 to 40000

    Ok at this point, I either have two options, shove or flat call if I think I'm ahead. I 90% believe I'm ahead right here unless he flopped a set. Even if I'm not ahead, is shoving -EV?

    Now assuming I flat, what happens if an A hits the turn and he checks to you, what is the play then? with apprx 80k behind? value bet? shove?

    Let me know thoughts, I'll post what happened later.
    875 
  2. doubledave22 doubledave22 is offline

    NJ
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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 2:33am) in reply to kice32

    problem with this hand is if u shove both really will narrow his range. That being said if your gonna continue DEF dont shove, theres no value in it. Hes calling if hes got you folding if he doesnt. I doubt he'll look u up with K9 or lower. Rainbow flop too so not too much to worry about either. I think flatting is fine, folding wouldnt even be too bad cause KQ KJ is def a possibility depending on ur read of him. If hes tricky aggressive id flat maybe just flat the whole way. Any other thoughts?
     1
  3. kice32 kice32 is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 2:36am) in reply to doubledave22

    well adding on to the information in the hand, i was getting reshoved a lot and folding, so I may even be able to narrow those KQ KJ K10 hands out
    875 
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  4. AUM AUM is offline

    Santa Cruz, CA
    United States

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 3:41am) in reply to kice32

    The problem with this hand is that you ve raised the minimum. This creates two situations: 1)His call from the big bling is completely priced in no matter what he has. 2)Its much harder to figure his range.
    If you'd trippled it u might of won the pot right there. If he calls after a trippled bet you can put him on KQ or Kj and get away from a check raise.

    Its very hard to determine what to do off the bat. It all depends on previous betting patterns that i havent seen. So basically if his a rock and hasnt shown any crazy tendencies you give him credit for a hand and insta muck, theres no reason to put anymore money in if you suspect ur behind.
    If his a maniac and you know you got it, the stacks and the stakes are too high to set up a rope a dope play where you check and call, maybe with 3 or 4 players left but not seven. A two pair suck out would be to sick. The shove is not designed to get paid off, its designed to shut down the pot right there with one top pair. The pots big enough and the table is still far from being in the real deep money(top 3), you want to assure you get there against the maniac in your pot. A shove here is a ballsy play with what you believe to be the best hand (against a loose aggressive player) and one that is looking to win the tournament. Again depends on the player, if its one who i must give the benefit of the doubt to more than not, its an easy fold.
  5. AUM AUM is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 3:44am) in reply to kice32

    You have three options.
  6. AUM AUM is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 3:51am) in reply to kice32

    The flat call doesnt really make sence to me.
    What can you beat to flat call, K9? One hand! If your gonna call thinking k10 is the best hand, why not raise? I really think its a raise or fold situation.
  7. Gettin Daize Gettin Daize is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:00am) in reply to AUM

    AUM i dont think open min raising is a problem.
    2 211 
  8. kice32 kice32 is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:08am) in reply to AUM

    if i raise i'm only getting called by hands i'm crushed by, i'm more concerned about what to do if an A hits, I did flat call in this situation fully expecting to give him some rope, i know its not that strong of hand, but i can't put very many check raising hands into his hand here
    875 
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  9. Gettin Daize Gettin Daize is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:18am) in reply to kice32

    raising is the worst play imo.

    I dont think theres to many hands worse than urs that hes calling a raise with and even if hes bad and does have a hand like k9 k8 k7 ur still gonna get prolly just as much value out of calling and getting it on later street....I would call flop , and plan to call turn river and if checked to on a river make a bet that looks like he has 1 last chance to bluff. IF i was playin the hand it would prolly look like

    Seat 2: iacog4 (145087 in chips)
    Seat 3: scobud (415403 in chips)
    Seat 5: Hyeaces (238609 in chips)
    Seat 6: WaxTailor (202068 in chips)
    Seat 8: bartvd (108149 in chips)
    Seat 9: sprstoner (94154 in chips)
    justcallin: posts the ante 800
    iacog4: posts the ante 800
    scobud: posts the ante 800
    Hyeaces: posts the ante 800
    WaxTailor: posts the ante 800
    bartvd: posts the ante 800
    sprstoner: posts the ante 800
    Hyeaces: posts small blind 4000
    WaxTailor: posts big blind 8000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to iacog4 [Ks Tc]
    bartvd: folds
    sprstoner: folds
    justcallin: folds
    iacog4: raises 8000 to 16000
    scobud: folds
    Hyeaces: folds
    WaxTailor: calls 8000
    *** FLOP *** [6s Kc 3d]
    WaxTailor: checks
    iacog4: bets 16999
    WaxTailor: raises 23001 to 40000
    iacog4:calls 23001
    Turn : 9( random)
    waxtailor : bets 45000
    iacog4 : calls 45000

    river .. 2 (random)
    waxtailor checks
    iacog: bets 12824
    waxtailor raises 101594 and is allin
    iacog4: calls 33222 and is allin

    waxtailor shows 34 loses
    iacog shows KT wins all da chips

    ^^^^ something like that just guessed wit da stacks pretty close tho

    im guessing since u posted the hand u prolly called the flop and he hit 2 pair on turn and u lost a big pot, but u have to play to maximize ur value not protect ur hand...

    prolly made no sense but i tryed haha
    2 211 
  10. Gettin Daize Gettin Daize is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:19am) in reply to kice32

    i think theres gonna be to many bluffs in his range and a Ace is a perfect card for him to double triple barrel so u have to just go with it even if an ace comes play just as ne other card.
    2 211 
  11. Gettin Daize Gettin Daize is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:20am) in reply to Gettin Daize

    someone 9349438x better than me will prolly read it and say im wrong ;/
    2 211 
  12. AUM AUM is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:22am) in reply to kice32

    My point is: if you think K10 is the best hand why not shov. If your calling his re raise thinking you might be beat, your throwing chips away.

    You said: "i know its not that strong, but i can't put very many check raising hands into his hand here"

    What do you mean? The check raise through you off and now you cant put him on a range? Then muck, he could have anything, K6 for example, 66, etc.

    Your concerned about an ace hitting; thats why u shov if you suspect your hand is a winner, so it does get that far.

    If an ace hit the turn and it made you lose the hand i think u missed played the hand.
  13. Stupor_Mundi Stupor_Mundi is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:28am) in reply to kice32

    I dislike flatting here. You are in position, so he will have a shot to fire again, but if you call here and he's got nothing to the turn, I am practically certain he will shut down the betting. The smallness of his raise and the depth of his stack seem to indicate that he's taking a one time stab, though I wouldn't necessary rule out the set.

    Why not 3-bet here considering he's got 1/4 of his stack in anyway... you shove and he folds, you've helped your stack. The only disadvantage of shoving is that he's practically only calling with hands that beat you (save K9, K8, K7 maybe). Given his line, I think you're out front.

    Shove.
  14. Gettin Daize Gettin Daize is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:31am) in reply to AUM

    "My point is: if you think K10 is the best hand why not shov. If your calling his re raise thinking you might be beat, your throwing chips away."

    no ur not of course u might be beat but if u put someone on a set everytime u flop top pair u gonna have some problems.

    "Your concerned about an ace hitting; thats why u shov if you suspect your hand is a winner, so it does get that far."

    I think is a scared mentality u cant be scared of getting outdrrawn in a situation like this ..this is a perfect board and stacks to check raise if i was in the bb here i would prolly check raise here like 80 percent of the time regardless if i hit, 3 bet just gets me to fold tho, but if a ace comes and i have 9 high im damn sure not checking.

    "If an ace hit the turn and it made you lose the hand i think u missed played the hand."

    Results Oriented :(
    2 211 
  15. Gettin Daize Gettin Daize is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:36am) in reply to Stupor_Mundi

    I think flatting is ok because the board texture though stupor. Theres no turn card thats gonna be THAT scary. And maybe he is the type of player that will give up on the turn if he has nothing...but say he does check the turn, then u can check behind and say a card 7-Q hits maybe he made 2nd pair and u get a lil value on the river when he checks to u ...or say A comes maybe he will take 1 last stab at it and u snap him off.

    IF the board was KxJs8s or something similar id be more inclined to just shove than on a K63 rainbow board
    2 211 
  16. FishOnTilt FishOnTilt is offline

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    Feb 26th, 2008 (2/26/2008 2:24pm) in reply to Gettin Daize

    i flat, this board is so dry. let him do somethin dumb, if an A comes so be it im still playin it bc his range should be wide bc the flop is so dry.
     
  17. bbbbb33 bbbbb33 is offline

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    Feb 26th, 2008 (2/26/2008 2:49pm) in reply to FishOnTilt

    im putting it in on the flop for two reasons (one of which is applicable to kevin)

    1) the pot is big, i usually like to stick it in
    2) i dont think only hands crushing you call, with my image (and prob not your), I get some very weird calls here.
     1
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