There certainly are limitations to the ICM model.

ICM calculators do not take the leverage that the big stack enjoys into account. When faced with a situation where a call could get you eliminated or get a lead, but the situation is very close, a call is usually correct because your new equity is likely larger in real life than the math suggests.

What I mean by this:

<TABLE border=1><TBODY><TR><TH>Player</TH><TH>Chips</TH><TH>Prob 1st</TH><TH>Prob 2nd</TH><TH>Prob 3rd</TH><TH>Equity</TH></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>Player 1
</TD><TD>7000</TD><TD>0.4667</TD><TD>0.3197</TD><TD>0.1720</TD><TD>$36.36</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>Player 2
</TD><TD>4000</TD><TD>0.2667</TD><TD>0.3190</TD><TD>0.2970</TD><TD>$28.84</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>Player 3
</TD><TD>3000</TD><TD>0.2000</TD><TD>0.2620</TD><TD>0.3545</TD><TD>$24.95</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>Player 4
</TD><TD>1000</TD><TD>0.0667</TD><TD>0.0992</TD><TD>0.1765</TD><TD>$9.84</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
In the above situation, the 7000 stack, if he knows how to utilize his chipstack and use his leverage on the midstacks, actually has more TRUE equity than $36.36.

A perfect example of this type of hand can be found in this thread:
toughest sng bubble spot, can you really fold here JENNIFEAR plz reply - Pocke

ICM calculators only take the current hand into consideration, and not where your position relative to the aggressors and where the blinds are. Those who are next to eat the blinds actually have less equity than the ICM calculator suggests, whereas those with better positions have more. This may affect a future decision. Most ICM calulators are one-hand only.

ICM calculators that suggest push/fold actions don't take into account that a call, rather than an isolation, may, in rare situations, be the right play.

ICM calculators don't take your image into account. You may be better off folding a slightly +EV spot due to a skill edge or to maintain a desired image.

Most importantly, ICM calculators that tell you what to push or call with are based on assumptions about another player's calling or shoving range. They assume that you play perfect, your oppponent plays perfect, and you both know each other plays perfect. In many situations in late-game play, your opponents will be calling and shoving with significantly different ranges than an ICM model would suggest. In these cases, you are better off adjusting accordingly and playing in an exploitive manner, rather than simply an unexploitable manner.

All of this said, ICM is still the best available way to analyze SNG situations.

I hope that answers your question well.

Good luck!

Jen

 

Originally Posted by x walks x

Most importantly, ICM calculators that tell you what to push or call with are based on assumptions about another player's calling or shoving range. They assume that you play perfect, your oppponent plays perfect

^^^^^^This is what a feared. In the $11 and $22 sngs players are playing far from perfect and pushing and calling light when they should probably be folding.

ill have a read through. thanks alot.

Don't fear this! Welcome it into your heart!

Look at how you can smack around these imperfect players:

Situation 1:

200-400, 25 antes.

Cutoff 4000, Button 7000, SB 1000, you are in the BB with 3000.

<TABLE class=simple cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=3 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>BU</TD><TD><TD><TD>78.6%, 22+ Qx+ J2s+ J4o+ T2s+ T6o+ 92s+ 96o+ 82s+ 85o+ 73s+ 75o+ 62s+ 64o+ 52s+ 54o 42s+ <<<< This guy here should be shoving very wide, but many lower-limit players are oblivious to this</TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>SB</TD><TD><TD>46.3%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K3o+ Q3s+ Q7o+ J6s+ J8o+ T7s+ T9o 98s </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD>28.2%, 44+ Ax+ K6s+ K9o+ Q9s+ QTo+ JTs </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD><TD>2.3%, TT+ <<<So this is you. If you call with TT+ here you are playing in an unexploitable fashion, but not an exploitive one. If you feel the button is shoving something like 20%, you can tighten your range to QQ+ to adjust!</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Situation two: 7 players left, blinds 100-200, 25 antes, and everyone has 1800 left. It's folded to the SB.

<TABLE class=simple cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=3 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>SB</TD><TD><TD><TD>77.7%, 22+ Qx+ J2s+ J5o+ T2s+ T6o+ 92s+ 96o+ 82s+ 85o+ 73s+ 75o+ 62s+ 64o+ 52s+ 54o 42s+ <<<If you are the SB, this is your "perfect" shoving range. However that's only really true if the BB is calling as wide as the ICM says he should (37.1%). Many players will call with much less, and therefore you can become exploitive rather than merely unexplitable by shoving 100% against the players who are calling with less.</TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD><TD>37.1%, 33+ Ax+ K2s+ K5o+ Q7s+ Q8o+ J9s+ JTo <<<If you are the BB, this is your "perfect" calling range, but it only makes sense to call this wide if your opponent is shoving very wide (77.7%). Many opponents aren't aware that they should be shoving so wide, and therefore, you can tighten your range to exploit this shoving flaw.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
So while, in a real SNG, you actually have to think rather than blindly following ICM, it's not all bad. It's a good thing. Use ICM as a starting basis, and adjust to your opponent's tendencies. If you can master this, you will be one sick SNG player.

It gets a lot easier to know push/fold/call ranges when you put in a few thousand SNGs

ok thanks..

is sngpt the best calculator?

Jen i just plaugged these number in:

Nash ICM Says I need 99+ in this spot WTF!? - i thought id be right to be shoving 88 all day long in that spot.

PokerStars Game #18326955091: Tournament #93100597, $6.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/06/23 - 09:24:31 (ET)
Table '93100597 1' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: fra31450 (2150 in chips)
Seat 2: rachelito (4860 in chips)
Seat 4: bl@ckle@f (910 in chips)
Seat 6: x walks x (1080 in chips)
x walks x: posts small blind 75
fra31450: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to x walks x [8s 8c]
rachelito: folds
bl@ckle@f: raises 300 to 450
x walks x: raises 630 to 1080 and is all-in
fra31450: folds
bl@ckle@f: calls 460 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (170) returned to x walks x
*** FLOP *** [9s Ac 9h]
*** TURN *** [9s Ac 9h] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [9s Ac 9h Qh] [Ts]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
x walks x: shows [8s 8c] (two pair, Nines and Eights)
bl@ckle@f: shows [Qc 4h] (two pair, Queens and Nines)
bl@ckle@f collected 1970 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1970 | Rake 0
Board [9s Ac 9h Qh Ts]
Seat 1: fra31450 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: rachelito folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: bl@ckle@f (button) showed [Qc 4h] and won (1970) with two pair, Queens and Nines
Seat 6: x walks x (small blind) showed [8s 8c] and lost with two pair, Nines and Eights

ok but with 7bb 88 is surely a reshove here is it not?

Thanks for all the help Jen

Do you run your numbers off this website during a game/s or have you played so many you just know where your at?

I just dont see how this could be possible while playing multiple tables

I might play 1-2 tables and plug the number in as i go just as a little experiement....

thx