Check out our brand new Local Poker Communities! Get updates and interact with poker players in your area.
Visit the United States Poker Community | Visit the California Poker Community | Read more about the Launch of P5s Local

ICM question

Reply to Thread
  1. Gregrrr Gregrrr is offline

    Racine, WI
    United States

    Posts: 223
    Joined: Apr 06

    Sep 27th, 2010 (9/27/2010 5:42am)

    Been playing around with ICM scenarios and I'm confused by the results when a certain range (in this case 15%) contains two different sets of cards.

    Level: 100.0/200.0/0.0
    Structure: 0.5/0.3/0.2
    Players: 5
    Runtime: 57ms [300 Iterations]

    Player Stack Push% EQPre EQPost EQDiff
    UTG 2700.0 15.2% 0.20 .2031 0.00307
    CO 2700.0 18.1% 0.20 .2031 0.00305
    BU 2700.0 31.2% 0.20 .2032 0.00318
    SB 2700.0 71.9% 0.20 .1971 -0.00289
    BB 2700.0 0.20. 1936 -0.00641

    PU CA OC Range
    UTG 15.2%, TT+ A2s+ ATo+ K9s+ KTo+ QTs+ QJo JTs
    CO 2.6%, TT+ AKs
    BU 0.5%, AA
    SB 0.5%, AA
    BB 0.5%, AA
    BU 2.6%, TT+ AKs
    SB 0.5%, AA
    BB 0.5%, AA
    SB 3.5%, TT+ AKs AKo
    BB 0.9%, KK+
    BB 4.2%, 99+ AQs+ AKo
    CO 18.1%, 99+ A2s+ A9o+ A5o K9s+ KTo+ Q9s+ QJo J9s+
    BU 4.2%, 99+ AQs+ AKo
    SB 0.9%, KK+
    BB 0.9%, KK+
    SB 4.2%, 99+ AQs+ AKo
    BB 0.9%, KK+
    BB 5.4%, 99+ AJs+ AQo+
    BU 31.2%, 22+ A2s+ A8o+ A5o-A2o K2s+ K9o+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ 98s
    SB 6.3%, 99+ AJs+ AJo+
    BB 0.9%, KK+
    BB 7.1%, 88+ ATs+ AJo+
    SB 71.9%, 22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q4o+ J2s+ J6o+ T2s+ T6o+ 92s+ 96o+ 82s+ 86o+73s+ 75o+ 62s+65o 52s+ 43s
    BB 15.2%, 66+ A5s+ A8o+ K9s+ KJo+

    Why would UTG push with 15.2%, TT+ A2s+ ATo+ K9s+ KTo+ QTs+ QJo JTs
    and...
    BB would call a SB shove with 15.2%, 66+ A5s+ A8o+ K9s+ KJo+ ?

    Do sng pros really rank preflop hand values differently in pushing vs. calling situations?

    btw... stove says the BB call range has better equity vs. a SB shove than the UTG push range does...63.44% to 62%
    Edited By: Gregrrr Sep 27th, 2010 at 06:07 AM
    Reason: fixing chart columns
  2. MYBLUEDOG MYBLUEDOG is offline

    Greenville, MS
    United States

    Posts: 1,999
    Joined: May 07

    Sep 27th, 2010 (9/27/2010 5:56am) in reply to Gregrrr

    Do you have the link to the site with the ICM. Your post runs together and makes my eyes cross.?
  3. Gregrrr Gregrrr is offline

    Racine, WI
    United States

    Posts: 223
    Joined: Apr 06

    Sep 27th, 2010 (9/27/2010 6:16am) in reply to Gregrrr

    Ok, I can't make the columns line up but it's like this...

    ICM has UTG shoving 5-handed with this range 15.2%, TT+ A2s+ ATo+ K9s+ KTo+ QTs+ QJo JTs
    and it has the BB calling a SB shove with this 15.2%, 66+ A5s+ A8o+ K9s+ KJo+

    both are 15.2% of possible hands but contain a different mix of hands.
    Why are some hands better to shove and some better to call with?
    Thread Starter
  4. MYBLUEDOG MYBLUEDOG is offline

    Greenville, MS
    United States

    Posts: 1,999
    Joined: May 07

    Sep 27th, 2010 (9/27/2010 2:57pm) in reply to Gregrrr

    From Pokerstove:
    {16.1%; 66+,A5s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,A8o+,KJo+}
    {15.2%; TT+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QJo}

    Just different way of configuring the cards for a certain percentage. Probably programed difference.

    Holdem Resources Results
  5. Gregrrr Gregrrr is offline

    Racine, WI
    United States

    Posts: 223
    Joined: Apr 06

    Sep 27th, 2010 (9/27/2010 7:26pm) in reply to MYBLUEDOG

    After removing the hands in the two ranges that are the same, these are the different hands...
    ... for pushing 5-handed UTG A2s, A3s, A4s, KTo, QTs, QJs, QJo, JTs
    ... for calling the SB shove A8o, A9o, 99, 88, 77, 66

    Now, intuitively, why is one set of hands better for pushing and one set better for calling (according to ICM)?
    Thread Starter
  6. MYBLUEDOG MYBLUEDOG is offline

    Greenville, MS
    United States

    Posts: 1,999
    Joined: May 07

    Sep 28th, 2010 (9/28/2010 6:21am) in reply to Gregrrr

    You generally need the upper (stronger range) to call a bet than you do when you are betting.

    When you bet, you have some degree of fold equity and your range is not always going to face a showdown.

    When you call all-in, your hand needs some degree of showdown value and should be better than your opponent's shoving range.
Reply to Thread