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ICM Question - Live 10 man SNG bubble

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  1. WirdPair WirdPair is offline

    Northville, MI
    United States

    Posts: 40
    Joined: Jul 07

    Oct 5th, 2010 (10/5/2010 6:36am)

    I was playing a live $200 10 man SNG last night, and the following occured: Top 3 spots pay - $1K, $600, $400. There are four of left, blinds are 800-1600-200 and the stacks are as follows:
    Button: 4.5K(Less than 3 BB's)
    SB: 17K
    BB(Me): 50.5K
    Cutoff/UTG: 28K

    Action folds to SB, who makes it 4K. I'm pretty sure I can shove ATC in this spot, and it is profitable, but I happen to look down at 9-9, so I shove. SB thinks forever, and calls with Ad-Qd. SB ends up winning the hand, but we get in a discussion of whether or not he should be calling in this spot. I argue that ICM says once he lets me exploit his 4K bet by shoving, he has to fold, given the guy who has less than 3 BB's. I'm trying to figure out what ICM says his calling range should be once he bets the 4K, and I shove. I'm pretty sure, its going to be A-A, and maybe K-K, and everything else is a fold. Just wondering if anyone could provide the calculation, as I'm too lazy and stupid to actual try and figure it out myself. Second question, what is the SB shoving range given the stack sizes and the money bubble, and assuming based on his shoving range, what is my calling range. I assume his shoving range (assuming he is playing perfectly is pretty tight), therefore, I would think my calling range would be pretty tight, i.e. is 9-9 a fold to a shove from the SB in this spot? Any help would be appreciated.
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  2. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

    Rosemount, MN
    United States

    Posts: 7,980
    Joined: Jun 05

    Oct 5th, 2010 (10/5/2010 2:53pm) in reply to WirdPair

    The open-shoving & calling ranges, according to the calculator, are:

    SB 27.0% {22+ Ax+ K9s+ KTo+ Q9s+ QJo J9s+ T9s}
    BB 13.4% {44+ A6s+ A8o+ KJs}

    Like you, I'm surprised the Nash calculator says they're this wide considering the super-shorty.

    In this case, it's a little bit different, because the SB opened the pot with a normal raise rather than a shove. But if the opening ranges are this wide, I think his call was probably mathematically correct with a hand as good as A-Q, considering the equity already in the pot.
     
  3. WirdPair WirdPair is offline

    Northville, MI
    United States

    Posts: 40
    Joined: Jul 07

    Oct 5th, 2010 (10/5/2010 6:38pm) in reply to grapsfan

    Graps, thanks for the info, just a couple points of clarification. The shoving and calling ranges quoted above are if the SB open shoves correct? If so, I can buy that, although I too am a little suprised at how wide his shoving range is given the super short stack at the table. The first question I had, which I'm not sure if you can answer or not, is once the SB bets 4K of his 17K, and the BB shoves, what is the SB calling range at this point. Seems to me once the SB has created an exploitable situation by only betting 4K, his calling range of the BB shove , due to the short stack and the money bubble, becomes A-A, and maybe K-K, and thats about it. Thanks again.
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  4. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

    Rosemount, MN
    United States

    Posts: 7,980
    Joined: Jun 05

    Oct 5th, 2010 (10/5/2010 7:40pm) in reply to WirdPair

    The ICM calculator I use at HoldemResources.net only does open-shove/call/overcall ranges.

    I don't know how to do the "call a 3-bet" calculation...there's probably a tool that can do it, but I'm unaware. You're right that his bet is exploitable (and you did the right thing). If anyone who has used the tools that might be available through SNGWiz or one of the training sites, it's an interesting question.
     
  5. bcdrmr bcdrmr is offline 3 of a kind > flush????

    Hamilton, OH
    United States

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    Oct 5th, 2010 (10/5/2010 8:13pm) in reply to grapsfan

    so how'd you finish, did you ship this bish?
  6. WirdPair WirdPair is offline

    Northville, MI
    United States

    Posts: 40
    Joined: Jul 07

    Oct 5th, 2010 (10/5/2010 8:40pm) in reply to bcdrmr

    Yeah, I ended up shipping the tourney, when I got it all in with 9-9 vs 7-7 all in pre heads up, and I had him covered by like 1K. Guy who called with A-Q ended up finishing 3rd.

     
    Originally Posted by grapsfan View Post

    The ICM calculator I use at HoldemResources.net only does open-shove/call/overcall ranges.

    I don't know how to do the "call a 3-bet" calculation...there's probably a tool that can do it, but I'm unaware. You're right that his bet is exploitable (and you did the right thing). If anyone who has used the tools that might be available through SNGWiz or one of the training sites, it's an interesting question.

    Graps, couldn't you just treat the call as his calling range, and mine as an open shove, but now his stack only has 13K in it, and the pot has 21.8K in it, and he has to call off his last 13K to win the 21.8K? In other words, what If I open shoved making the pot 21.8K, and he had to call 13K to win, is it a call then? Does that make sense? I guess the only problem is you would have to adjust the blinds to make the pot "look right", which would change the equity of the short stack.
    Edited By: WirdPair Oct 6th, 2010 at 02:58 PM
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