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ICM spot turbo ft

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  1. iamthedeck ftw iamthedeck ftw is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 2:34am)

    Final table on stars. Standard payouts. What you guys think here? Just looking at the super short stack all in and 1 more behind does this become a fold? What sort of range are you getting it in with here?

    pokerstars Hand #73134489349: Tournament #488385290, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXXVI (90000/180000) - 2012/01/01 21:09:33 ET
    Table '488385290 77' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
    Seat 2: super D33 (3559264 in chips)
    Seat 3: Genyyy (42184 in chips)
    Seat 4: teckidtq (1162631 in chips)
    Seat 6: yardKR (100204 in chips)
    Seat 7: OndeAndy (3820717 in chips)
    super D33: posts the ante 18000
    Genyyy: posts the ante 18000
    teckidtq: posts the ante 18000
    yardKR: posts the ante 18000
    OndeAndy: posts the ante 18000
    Genyyy: posts small blind 24184 and is all-in
    teckidtq: posts big blind 180000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to teckidtq [Ad Qd]
    yardKR: folds
    OndeAndy: raises 360000 to 540000
    super D33: folds
    teckidtq: ?????
     
  2. rungoodmuch rungoodmuch is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 2:48am) in reply to iamthedeck ftw

    Def not folding here. His range is too wide. A10+ 55+
  3. iamthedeck ftw iamthedeck ftw is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 2:59am) in reply to rungoodmuch

     
    Originally Posted by rungoodmuch View Post

    Def not folding here. His range is too wide. A10+ 55+

    His range is much wider than this. I realize how far I am ahead of his range but there is ICM to consider.
     
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  4. gotzballz gotzballz is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 3:11am) in reply to iamthedeck ftw

    You are not only ahead of his range, but you are crushing it. Get it in.
     
  5. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 4:22am) in reply to BenFaz

    Right ICM is but one factor in spots like these. You need to assess the spot overall and weigh a few factors to determine what is the optimal play.

    You like almost always have the best hand here. And the beauty of it is that he can't ever fold to ur jamm. so if you think his range is even wider than described how in the world can you not get it in here?
  6. grandmamoneybags grandmamoneybags is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 4:40am) in reply to TheVillageGrinder

     
    Originally Posted by TheVillageGrinder View Post

    Right ICM is but one factor in spots like these. You need to assess the spot overall and weigh a few factors to determine what is the optimal play.

    You like almost always have the best hand here. And the beauty of it is that he can't ever fold to ur jamm. so if you think his range is even wider than described how in the world can you not get it in here?


    Meh that's pretty gross icm wise. And yeah I think his range is super wide here w/the super shorty still left. Meh I really think that this is still a high five monitor call tho. Your going to be a 60/40 like 70% of the time 70/30 10% flip like 8 % and crushed 2% of the time. Think I go w/ it here. still have a decent shoving stack if we call and lose.
  7. luckierno7 luckierno7 is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 1:23pm) in reply to grandmamoneybags

    i cant fold this.. with u standing 4/5 and being so close to the short stack , imo u shouldnbt try to crawl into 4th place
    118 
  8. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 4:45pm) in reply to luckierno7

     
    Originally Posted by luckierno7 View Post

    i cant fold this.. with u standing 4/5 and being so close to the short stack , imo u shouldnbt try to crawl into 4th place

    He's actually 3/6. Seat 6: yardKR (100204 in chips) will be allin on the next BB. Not sure that factors here or not ICM wise, But if we are playing to win I think ICM is out the window here in this spot as we should be so far ahead of his range that we just get it in.

    One question for OP- was a 3x raise this guys standard raise? Seems odd this late in a tourny.
     
  9. double_kyan double_kyan is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 5:19pm) in reply to bonflizubi

    ummm play for 1st shove it down the throat please,or fold and let CL walk on you too,is another option

    one play besides shoving could be a flat call, than pot bet any flop,this gives u a chance of him mucking the flop vs. no chance on pre-shove........which also gives u more chance to ladder climb

    the one down side is not doubling up thru him if all in PF but if u can pick up his 500k and ladder climb thts gr8 imo vs. flat out being KO'd
    Edited By: double_kyan Jan 2nd, 2012 at 05:32 PM
     1
  10. iamthedeck ftw iamthedeck ftw is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 5:29pm) in reply to double_kyan

    I'm sftilted by these responses words can't even explain.... There is a player all in in the sb for 1/8th of a BB, and a player about to be all in for half a BB next hand. I am 3/5. I don't factor in ICM much... I do play tournaments to win them... but at some point money becomes a factor.
    There are ICM spots where folding aces pre is the right play. Here, I think I would get it in with aces... and prob also kings, and maybe queens, since villain has been opening pretty wide.

    Anyways, if you guys are factoring in the ICM of this spot, then thanks for your help. If someone else with an idea for ICM wants to come forward with their range in this spot, that would be great too.

    Edit: To answer bonf question, 3x was out of the ordinary for this player and I think he may have done it so that I knew I had no fold equity.
    Edited By: iamthedeck ftw Jan 2nd, 2012 at 05:30 PM
     
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  11. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 5:58pm) in reply to iamthedeck ftw

     
    Originally Posted by iamthedeck ftw View Post

    Edit: To answer bonf question, 3x was out of the ordinary for this player and I think he may have done it so that I knew I had no fold equity.

    Ah- the reason I asked it that some noobs will raise more with bigger hands. So if he was raising 2./5 normally and now was 3xing he often has at least a mid pair if not a huge hand here. I think this angle should be discussed more, especially with where the 4 and 5 stacks are sitting. (I don't necessarily believe he was trying to give the illusion of no fold equity - though it's possible.)

    How competent was this guy?
     
  12. iamthedeck ftw iamthedeck ftw is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 6:43pm) in reply to bonflizubi

     
    Originally Posted by bonflizubi View Post

    Ah- the reason I asked it that some noobs will raise more with bigger hands. So if he was raising 2./5 normally and now was 3xing he often has at least a mid pair if not a huge hand here. I think this angle should be discussed more, especially with where the 4 and 5 stacks are sitting. (I don't necessarily believe he was trying to give the illusion of no fold equity - though it's possible.)

    How competent was this guy?

    Ya I didn't think he had a really big hand because my read on him was competent and I fully expected him to apply pressure in a spot like this... fwiw he showed up with a7s and got there lol. I wanted to shove so bad I just couldn't do it with those stacks.
     
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  13. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 6:46pm) in reply to iamthedeck ftw

    for the real ICM answer you need to go here: http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sn...alculator.html and fill that out, with the payouts, to get the right ranges.
     
  14. iamthedeck ftw iamthedeck ftw is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 7:14pm) in reply to bonflizubi

     
    Originally Posted by bonflizubi View Post

    for the real ICM answer you need to go here: http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sn...alculator.html and fill that out, with the payouts, to get the right ranges.

    ty for the link. Here is what I got after entering payouts and stacks:
    http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sn...6=&s7=&s8=&s9=

    Ok figured it out CO pushes SB calls and for me to OC I should be 88+. I am guessing this range also includes AQs
    Edited By: iamthedeck ftw Jan 2nd, 2012 at 07:22 PM
     
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  15. Gags30 Gags30 is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 7:40pm) in reply to iamthedeck ftw

     
    Originally Posted by iamthedeck ftw View Post

    ty for the link. Here is what I got after entering payouts and stacks:
    http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sn...6=&s7=&s8=&s9=

    Ok figured it out CO pushes SB calls and for me to OC I should be 88+. I am guessing this range also includes AQs

    how would 88+ include AQ? lol
    170 2 

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  16. double_kyan double_kyan is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 8:11pm) in reply to Gags30

     
    Originally Posted by Gags30 View Post

    how would 88+ include AQ? lol


    lol........................well u say his 7 got there but was it on the turn or river? stop and go mighta worked here? and fwiw a pre shove just might get him to lay it [not every1 makes this call] i def don't like his pf sizing he fosho raised tht much to scare off,this guy prob folds pre as well
    Edited By: double_kyan Jan 2nd, 2012 at 08:11 PM
     1
  17. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 8:33pm) in reply to iamthedeck ftw

     
    Originally Posted by iamthedeck ftw View Post

    Ok figured it out CO pushes SB calls and for me to OC I should be 88+. I am guessing this range also includes AQs


    Nope. That means pairs 88 or better. It is calling AQ a fold there.
     
  18. iamthedeck ftw iamthedeck ftw is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 9:10pm) in reply to double_kyan

     
    Originally Posted by double_kyan View Post

    lol........................well u say his 7 got there but was it on the turn or river? stop and go mighta worked here? and fwiw a pre shove just might get him to lay it [not every1 makes this call] i def don't like his pf sizing he fosho raised tht much to scare off,this guy prob folds pre as well

    lol he flopped nfd not going anywhere... I really didn't feel like there was any FE but maybe I'm wrong.
    I woulda thought AK was better than 88 here. I just don't understand how they assign these shoving ranges is it just standard?
     
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  19. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 9:38pm) in reply to iamthedeck ftw

     
    Originally Posted by iamthedeck ftw View Post

    I just don't understand how they assign these shoving ranges is it just standard?

    yes - it's the straight math assuming that people are shoving optimally.
     
  20. Gags30 Gags30 is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2012 (1/2/2012 10:21pm) in reply to iamthedeck ftw

     
    Originally Posted by iamthedeck ftw View Post

    lol he flopped nfd not going anywhere... I really didn't feel like there was any FE but maybe I'm wrong.
    I woulda thought AK was better than 88 here. I just don't understand how they assign these shoving ranges is it just standard?


    88 does better vs a random hand than AQs does
    170 2 
  21. AmSlim22 AmSlim22 is offline

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    Jan 3rd, 2012 (1/3/2012 5:47am) in reply to jtj03

    i would have hated it, but it is a fold.

    doublekyan based on ur reply here and ur other KK thread, u are too results oriented.

    people saying u play to win, are kinda wrong. u play to win $ and folding will net u more $

    in game, i also may shove sometimes, but i would be thinking that i was making the wrong play.
     
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