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If you think you're being cheated, you probably are. -- OK, am I paranoid?

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  1. DoubleLucky DoubleLucky is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
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    Feb 27th, 2005 (2/27/2005 6:28pm)

    There are a couple of old sayings in Arkansas where I'm from about poker that I have always lived by ...or at least played poker by.

    The first is, "if you sit down in a poker game and you can't spot the sucker, you're it." The second is, "if you suspect you're being cheated, you probably are."

    So, okay, am I being paranoid?

    One of the problems with playing in multi-table tourneys with small fields is the danger of players colluding goes up dramatically. I just busted out of a 17 player field $216 buy-in NLHE tourney at Full Tilt on a hand that has all my alarm bells ringing like crazy.

    Since I've spent some time lately talking up Full Tilt tourneys because I like their structures compared to most other on-line tourneys I think it's both fair and appropriate I point out what I suspect was collusion. Certainly it is possible this was all just coincedence, so you tell me if you think I'm over-reacting.

    The hand in a nut-shell went like this; very early stages of the tourney and I get AKo in middle position and raise 3 big blinds first-in. The opponent to my immeditae left cold-calls and the player to his immediate left re-raises all-in with just short of an average stack. I re-raise what little extra I have and the player who cold-called also calls. I turned my AKo, the cold-caller turns KK and the re-raiser turns QJo.

    Now, as I said, certainly this play is possible without collusion, but you have to admit in a short field, with a cold-call from KK (in itself somewhat unusual), this re-raise from QJo is "convenient" for the KK to the point of being suspicious.

    I've sent Full Tilt an email and we'll see if they can find anything to alleviate my concerns, but as for now I'm following that other old adage, "if you suspect you're being cheated, stop playing."
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  2. Adam Adam is offline Emperor

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    Feb 27th, 2005 (2/27/2005 6:37pm) in reply to DoubleLucky

    I don't think you were cheated, personally. I see people make plays like that with garbage all the time. You can't have much +EV on cheating in a 17 person field...can you?
     
  3. DoubleLucky DoubleLucky is offline

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    Feb 27th, 2005 (2/27/2005 6:41pm) in reply to Adam

    Why not? Short fields are about the only place you can have +EV in mult-table tourneys colluding.

    It's the combination of the cold-call with Kk followed by a re-rasie of a raise and a cold-call with a stinking QJo that has my alarm bells ringing. It may well have been just dumb play, I don't deny that, but if it was, it was dumb play that the KK benefitted from just as if he knew the QJo would re-raise.
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  4. DoubleLucky DoubleLucky is offline

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    Feb 27th, 2005 (2/27/2005 6:48pm) in reply to DoubleLucky

    Let me add this for what it is worth. I've played over 1000 tourneys on-line in the last year or so and this is the first time I've come away with this feeling.
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  5. DoubleLucky DoubleLucky is offline

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    Feb 27th, 2005 (2/27/2005 7:03pm) in reply to DoubleLucky

    I suppose as I think about this it probably wasn't collusion.

    If they were working as a team they really gained very little by having the QJo re-rasie that they wouldn't have gotten simply by having the KK re-raise. The benefit would have come if I had been to the left of the KK and cold-called and the QJo had re-raised. Since it didn't happen that way I guess I am just being paranoid.

    Does it still count as paranoid if you realize it?
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  6. Dumb Walrus Dumb Walrus is offline

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    Feb 27th, 2005 (2/27/2005 8:29pm) in reply to DoubleLucky

    DoubleLucky, you are a very veteran tourney player.. what are you doing man? Get over it, honestly, QJo had two live cards as they say on here.. pot odds probably made him think he had a chance at it. You were going to lose anyways with your AKo most likely, its not like they even knew they flop.

    Collusion in tourneys can happen in large fields too! Ex/ 2005 WSOP 5000 person field with "The Matador" and his few dozen or so "fresh horses." LoL!
  7. HeelinDerm HeelinDerm is offline

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    Feb 27th, 2005 (2/27/2005 9:11pm) in reply to Dumb Walrus

    I've got to laugh at this one. Come down to the low stakes MTT's and this type of play seems to be the norm.
  8. DoubleLucky DoubleLucky is offline

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    Feb 27th, 2005 (2/27/2005 9:15pm) in reply to Dumb Walrus

    I don't know, DW. I've been on a real tear the last couple of days. Just about everything is getting me steaming. It may be time to take a day off.

    Something I try to do at least once every 6 months or so. ...whether I need it or not
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  9. j2the3rd j2the3rd is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 7:44am) in reply to DoubleLucky

    you should check out Prima... that QJo all-in is strong compared to what you see a lot of the scandies going all in on.
  10. JD Roark JD Roark is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 9:07am) in reply to DoubleLucky

    I'm a bit paranoid myself, but I didn't start becoming paranoid until I realized that everyone was watching me! >:)
  11. bengalmania bengalmania is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 9:31am) in reply to DoubleLucky

    For anyone who feels they are being cheated they should really go and play at ultimate bet. At ultimatebet they have a buddy list and if you suspect that you are being cheated just throw the peoples name on your buddy list. After the tournament is over keep track of those two on your buddy list and if you notice they play at the same tables frequently let ultimatebet know. They will do something about it especially if they get more than one complaint about a single player.

    WHO DEY
  12. NSXT2 NSXT2 is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 10:25am) in reply to bengalmania

    Okay, I respond. Firstly, the KK guy just calling is the CORRECT play IMHO. Secondly, the guy who reraised all in was making a play and happens all the time. NO WAY< NOHOW were you cheated. VERY normal.
     
  13. steve steve is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 10:47am) in reply to JD Roark

    hey, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
  14. JD Roark JD Roark is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 10:50am) in reply to steve

    I think I just saw a black helicopter. I'm heading to my bunker!!
  15. BigHog1 BigHog1 is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 11:04am) in reply to NSXT2

    For what it's worth, DL, a similar thing happened to me in a Sit and Go on Paradise except the last person to act went all in with 8 - 2 offsuit, expecting me to fold. Since there seemed to be a lot of dumping off of money from one to the other starting with five players left, I called with A-10 suited. The only other person in the hand, to my immediate left, called with KK. Realizing that collusion is easier at a one table than multi, I contacted the site when I was eliminated thirdand they investigated. Sure enough, these two were making a living out of playing in $300 and $100 S&Gs for months. Paradise sent me first place money, threw the varmits off the site and told me they were able to freeze the little money they had left in their respective accounts (I don't know if they have the right to freeze anything but that's what they told me).

    I wish you good luck but because the play occurred in a multi way, coupled with the fact that the QJ is "playable" compared to my guy with 8-2, I think you may be paranoid on this one.
  16. AceKQ AceKQ is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 11:24am) in reply to NSXT2

    "NO WAY< NOHOW were you cheated."
    IMHO If I were going to "collude" either way I would not want to be the player knocked out and as the only real benefit to collusion is to push up the pre flop betting this would not even seem like the right time to do it. Knowing in advance your jq was crushed a small re raise would seem to be the way to go in hope of you making the all in play ready for the kk to call and the jq to fold. Just my 10cents Ace
  17. Card Mann Card Mann is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 11:50am) in reply to AceKQ

    I want to start off by saying that this is my first post on this very informative site. Keep up the good work.

    There have been instances in Sit-N-Go tables that I have wondered if this same thing was happening to me. However, I don't think it applies in this situation. With 5 players left (assuming top 3 get paid in a 9 or 10 seat) what is the benefit of having one of the colluders getting knocked out leaving only one to make top 3? It would have to be a very high buy-in in order for that to be a pheasible ploy. Plus, it is "just" kings. If the other colluder had an ace I could see how that would be more likely. (better to know you are facing a 2-outer than a 3, but not much)

    See ya on the felt (if you play pocket change, that is)
    Card Mann
  18. DoubleLucky DoubleLucky is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 1:48pm) in reply to NSXT2

    OK, N. As I said, once I cooled off I came to the conclusion it wasn't collusion.

    As far as your comment that cold-calling with KK is "correct." Cold-calling with KK is one way of playing the hand. My point was that it was somewhat unusual. Surely you don't disagree that most would re-raise the KK, right? If, however, your point is that it would have been incorrect to re-raise, well, I think you're getting a little full of yourself.

    And I'll put your comment about re-raising a raiser and cold-caller with QJo as being "very normal" in the same category as your advice about on-line poker not being taxable and bluffing into 2 ace flops as being profitable long-term.
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  19. DoubleLucky DoubleLucky is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 1:55pm) in reply to BigHog1

    Yea, BigHog1. I agree and I sent Full Tilt an apology last night for bothering them with this once I cooled off.

    I play a ton of tournaments on the weekends and by Sunday night I can be more than a little irritable. I think it's called "steaming."
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  20. NSXT2 NSXT2 is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 2:28pm) in reply to DoubleLucky

    Yikes, please don't start. Yes KK is ONE way to play and most would reraise. The rest of your comments i care not to reply to, of course. they are sily.
     
  21. DoubleLucky DoubleLucky is offline

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 4:38pm) in reply to NSXT2

    LOL. OK.
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