If I was hero I'd stop calling raises oop with short stacks.

If I was villain I would call this shove as quick as possible, just in case hero regrets his move and decides to go back in time and change his mind.

 

Originally Posted by pokerface1965

I thought after 8 hours of play

Time invested in the tournament is not a factor, and if it is for you, you're doing it wrong.

,i could get him off his top pair top kicker

You didn't know he had top pair top kicker

,I would of played AA,KK,QQ,JJ and A3 the same way.

No you would have never play those hands the same way. A, because you'd 3bet JJ+ preflop. B: Because with A3 you would have check raised, because you guys are always affraid of the flush draws.

Last but not least: In the impossible scenario of you having a premium pair, why would you ever want him to fold top pair top kicker?

Here's a free tip: Next time you play, don't click buttons. Before doing that, think, try to make sense, and follow a logical line. The bold part is what 99% of people is missing when they play. If you manage to start doing it, you will be part of the top 1% of poker players.

 

Originally Posted by andressoprano

Last but not least: In the impossible scenario of you having a premium pair, why would you ever want him to fold top pair top kicker?

Here's a free tip: Next time you play, don't click buttons. Before doing that, think, try to make sense, and follow a logical line. The bold part is what 99% of people is missing when they play. If you manage to start doing it, you will be part of the top 1% of poker players.

Thanks for your time and help, funny thing is as soon as i went all in i new i would get called and it took me an hour after to recover, knowing i made a big mistake i just needed confirmation,im unable to play volumes of mtts but i know i have the ability, just need to learn from players like you, once again thanks for your advice

Ya, it's not the villains play you should be worried about it's yours. a8 OOP with 1m just fold. Your shove off the flop accomplishes nothing.

You would 3bet any big hand pre, you wouldn't jam a set of 3's. You're repping exactly what you have a FD and don't want to get called. If you're going to flat here check shove at least. Don't just jam and make him play it perfect.

My answer, ya i would snap call you for my tourney life.

Yes I would snap this. It looks like you have nothing at all. Also, definately fold pre-flop - A8s is a trouble hand especially oop. There are some situations where this hand is playable, like if stacks are deep and its multi-way. But this is definately not the time for A8s...

It's a call that must me made. He only has to win the hand 40-45% of the time to make this call, and he's going to win if he calls at least 75% of the time.

 

Originally Posted by supra1988t

Another tip: Dont donk shove 5x, or even 2x the pot. Ever.

I read a passage in Kill Everyone that made a very interesting case that it can be profitable to do this occasionally, and pretty much precisely in circumstances like this, ie flatting from the blinds and then jamming the flop even if it is like 4x, 5x the pot.

I don't agree with the play in this hand, I wouldn't do it, but I just think it's not *quite* as bad as everyone is making out. What's he getting called by other than 10x and JJ+ ? Even against JJ-KK and JT, QT, KT, he has about 40% equity, so it's not the end of the world if he gets called. It's only AT, AA and the very unlikely TT or 3x that have him in big trouble, and only TT is a complete crusher.

If villain has AK-, even 99-, I think he has a very hard time calling off here. And even if he does hero is in reasonable shape. Add in the fold equity for open shoving the flop and this move is not as bad as everyone is making out. Yes it looks very much like a flush draw, but still, are you calling off your tourny life here with AK or 99 knowing that even if it is a flush draw you're pretty much flipping?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here... as I said, I wouldn't play it this way. But I don't think stop and go here is *that* bad.

 

Originally Posted by Trembath29

I read a passage in Kill Everyone that made a very interesting case that it can be profitable to do this occasionally, and pretty much precisely in circumstances like this, ie flatting from the blinds and then jamming the flop even if it is like 4x, 5x the pot.

I don't agree with the play in this hand, I wouldn't do it, but I just think it's not *quite* as bad as everyone is making out. What's he getting called by other than 10x and JJ+ ? Even against JJ-KK and JT, QT, KT, he has about 40% equity, so it's not the end of the world if he gets called. It's only AT, AA and the very unlikely TT or 3x that have him in big trouble, and only TT is a complete crusher.

If villain has AK-, even 99-, I think he has a very hard time calling off here. And even if he does hero is in reasonable shape. Add in the fold equity for open shoving the flop and this move is not as bad as everyone is making out. Yes it looks very much like a flush draw, but still, are you calling off your tourny life here with AK or 99 knowing that even if it is a flush draw you're pretty much flipping?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here... as I said, I wouldn't play it this way. But I don't think stop and go here is *that* bad.

It's pretty bad.

Against the villain's range, hero has close to 50% equity with the nutflush draw + overcard. 5x'ing the pot ensures he only gets called by hands that are ahead and gains no value from hands that are behind. I'll always take a different and more profitable line in this spot.

Why is 25 bb's short? I think it's a fold because of the min raise utg but if you feel he's weak 90 pecent of the time you still have room to 3b fold. But It's either fold or 3b/f... I don't think I like a flat in the bb.

Agree 100% with tyson and andres.

very good point,that would of been more interesting, as for you guys who say im lying that I wouldnt play top pairs and A3 the same way,well I have and I will do so in the future,clearly if im going to get called 70% of the time in the future im going to make the same play with AA KK QQ JJ A3,and ,to everyone im being ridiculed as being a donkcool everyone has an opinion and I accept that,but 4 or 5 bet folds never existed 4 years ago,poker evolves, and a best play today may be poor play in 2 years time,standard c-bet is now being questioned why? because eveybody c-bets! and now the thinking player realises it can be expoited at least 50% of the time.