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I will give my 2cents, after people respond with their own.
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Cash game: Not calling with any pocket pair to a 4x-5x bb preflop bet because they think they are beat. You call, hoping for the 7-1 chance that you hit your set.
Tournament early stages: Calling/raising with A-9os and below from early position.
Tournament late stages: Not calling all-in bets from the short stack with J-10, Q-9, or similar hands.
best of luck,
-amob -
Not being able to fold or worrying about being bluffed.
Folding JJ preflop is something that new players can't do but even the average player should be able to recognize position and betting to know they should fold JJ or TT, sometimes even QQ preflop. -
Playing 2 many hands out of position.
My buddy was doing this, calling suited connectors UTG, UTG+1 at the local casino, only to have me raise $15 from the BB and him having to fold, or pay $15 more dollars and hope there wasn't a re-raise.
I quickly explained to him why to wait to see how the table is playing, and more importantly, why its unprofitable to play these early, when you have to much them for a raise. -
Don't be so rigid or formulaic when you're sitting at a table . Sure it's necessary to have a list of starting hand requirements when you enter a pot but occasionally you have to learn how to deviate from your starting hand selections .
For instance , if you've estimated that you can win the blinds uncontested 2 out of every three times then you can play almost any two cards and open for a raise . In other words , keep track at how often your good hands win the blinds and use this information to determine whether you think it's right to steal the blinds with two suited connectors or suited aces .
If 50 % of your good hands get called , then take this opportunity to open up your starting hand requirements . On the other hand , if 90 % of your good hands get called , then there should be less incentive to open a pot with speculative hands like suited connectors . -
Starting hand selection in position
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gap concept, esp. when you have a good sized stack, and people at your table fear you (for whatever reason). open for a raise from almost any position, with almost any 2: when people fear you they fold a lot and or just call and then fold when they miss the flop. obv. you have to know when / why and how to lay down when you miss the flop, etc. Also you do this, say 2 times every 10 pockets--not every hand! as then people know your pocket selection is "any two". When you do this 2 out of every ten, then obviously they know you have some hand selection, but on any given hand they also know that they cannot rule out a card ("only the 6 makes the str8 and he'd not play a hand with a 6 in it from early pos..." because just 10 hands ago you showed down 79s from early pos for the surprize boat! etc)
BUT DON't mindlessly LIMP or call pre flop with k10s, 66 etc when odds are you will be heads up with the pre flop raiser! you almost always need a BIG hand to call. in a mutli way, consider calling pre flop raises with some marginal "drawing" type pockets, but the GAP concept is huge.
take CHANCES late in a tourny: try to go out (if you have to) raising rasing raising -- make sure a move you make gives you a chance that the opp folds and you have 100% chance of taking the pot down. pre flop raise from a mid sized stack in early pos and you have 10 10 on the button. you are a mid sized stack too: unless the player is V V tight, strongly consider raising all in -- risky, but you gotta take risks late in an MTT. maybe he folds AQ or JJ and then you win a small pot uncontested. Maybe he calls with AK but your hand holds up. etc. Maybe he insta calls with AA but you suck out. and maybe he busts you--so what? you went out swinging.
--tc -
These were all very good responses. The gap concept, taking chances late, playing to many pots out of position etc. I probably should have named the thread common mistakes, because one I see may not be the biggest but is very common.
What I see is that many people go all in much, much more on semi-bluffs or just total bluffs, busted draws and such, then they do when they actually get good hands. When so many people are using things like poker tracker, it is very easy to get a read on people and it makes calling an easy descion for opponents. I think it's a good idea to go all in with good hands, if you flop a set with two flush cards out there or two drawing cards like j-10, going all in is not a bad idea, many people will think you are on a draw and you'll get their whole stack. When one gets a big stack, the first thing people hate is getting bullied and many think you are just fos by going all in so much. They will end up making huge mistakes and instead of just extracting some of their chips, one will end up getting people's whole stacks.
I used to watch Antonius play on Prima and he was a nightmare to the other players. He's all in on made flushes, made straights, sets, top pair top kicker, good hands ,semi bluffs and many total bluffs. His playing style opened the doors for so many more bluffing oppurtunities. Imagine three spades out there and he's all in, yet he plays a made flush, just like a bluff, what does one do? They would go in the tank and fold and sometimes he'd show 5-2os. Antonious could have set up this play by just calling the flop to look like he's on a draw. What I noticed was the constant pressure that he puts on his oppenents wears them down mentally and he tended to get their whole stack in the end.
If one can get in good position late in a mtt, a couple of timely bluffs could be the difference in winning or blinding out, but to pull off the bluff people have to fear you when it's tried.
I was in a mtt on party the other day and had a 4x average stack with two tables left. There was a guy all in the BB, bc he couldn't post it. Someone in mid position raises and I was dealt JJ, I reraised him and he flat called. He only had less then half of the average sitting behind. I figured he had a medium pp. I had been very aggressive and the flop came J-8-5. I knew probably that the other table was watching too, so I went all in, we were hand for hand and I knew my hand was getting shown, because the BB was all in. I was wanting everyone to fear my all ins at the FT, when the blinds would be so huge, that one good bluff might make a big difference. Well it worked out good, the guy called with 9s anyways I'm sure he put me on AK, but more importantly I won a huge pot on one timely bluff at the FT and took it down.
If people have noticed in their games that they have been going all in mostly on draws and bluffs, they will be surprised how many calls they will get if they have a good hand and they go all in. Don't underestimate Poker Tracker and such. -
thanks for the post, v nice.
I do bluff all in occassionally on busted draws, or semi bluff the turn, etc
but I ALSO will go all in with made hands, too (as you point out is imortant). I used to be so affraid that my made hand would not get paid off, I'd bet or raise small just making sure I got SOME chips.
you are right, that such a style is playing "scared" poker (scared that he'll "get away" is scared poker, too).
--tc -
Good post, keep 'em coming! ; )
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The biggest mistake I see average players making is not paying attention. Overvaluing hands and not paying attention to position and stack size are HUGE mistakes. First, people make plays with hands like A-9 and A-x suited from early position. They just dont realize how many players behind them could have a better hand. Also, even in position (not that they are taking position into account), they think hands like KQ and QJs are playable to a raise from the tightest player at the table. They dont pay attention to pot odds, then berate the guy who calls their all-in with K-9 suited and hits, even though he was getting 3:1 on his call. You really have to pay attention...there is SOOO much going on at the table. I dont know HOW people multi-table and I dont know if I would ever be able to do it because there is just SO much going on. Sure, at the beginning of a tourney, youre really just playing your cards, sure, to make money in mid-level cash games you just have to play tight, but at a final table..or final 2 or 3 tables...there is SOO much going on. You have to see your stack reletive to the blinds, your opponants, remember betting actions, watch the other players, recognise the short stack, see how close you are to the money...there are a MILLION things you have to pay attention to...and youre not going to be able to do it if youre watching TV or talking on the phone or masturbating...just watch the tourney and PAY ATTENTION!
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Way too many people play WAY too passive. Particularly preflop.
A good rule of thumb is to not call preflop. In fact, I try to never call preflop.
if you raise every pot you go into, it serves a variety of functions. First, it MAKES you play tight. If you aren't willing to raise with J7o then you shouldn't be willing to call with it.
This serves very well to disguise your hands. If you play AK, AA, and 87s all the same, it will be very hard for anyone to put you on a hand. Passive players tend to be very easy to read.
Although as said above, you don't want to overplay your draws, you do want to still be aggressive with them time to time. I see way too many people call all day and then wonder why they get no action when that third spade hits and they bet the farm. -
I think it's calling when you have a large stack just to try and bust a shorter stack when you haven't reached that stage of the tournament yet.
There is a middle ground where the chips the short stack can potentially gain from you are worth WAY more to him, than what you would gain if you bust him. -
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td><table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>Why Poker is so hard... </td></tr><tr><td>by supermoves on 5/4/2006 12:14 </td></tr></tbody></table> </td><td><nobr>
<span onclick="javascript:return confirm('Are you sure you wish to delete this post?');">
</span> </nobr> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr><tr><td><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td>So, I was typing my response to a thread in the hand advice section called "what advice would you give to an average player". My response was I would tell them to pay attention. I started typing out all the things you must pay attention to and take into account and I realized what a HUGE list it was. Below is a list of everything I believe you must know and think about when making a decision while player poker.
1. The blinds reletive to your stack
2. The blinds relative to your opponants stack
3. How many people are left
4. Your position
5. Your cards
6. Opponants betting actions
7. How close you are to the money
8. When the blinds go up
9. What is the average stack
10. How to spell
Please feel free to add on to this list...we will see if we can get a final list of everything you have to take into consideration when playing a NL holdem hand. </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table> <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" width="33%"><a id="FirstPageLink" disabled="disabled">[First Page]</a> <a id="PreviousPageLink" disabled="disabled">[« Previous]</a> <a id="NextPageLink" disabled="disabled">[Next »]</a> </td><td valign="top" width="33%">[«] [Poker Discussion] [»] </td><td valign="top" width="33%"><a id="TopicViewLink" disabled="disabled">[Topic View]</a> [Thread View] </td></tr></tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td><table bgcolor="#ffffff" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#eeeedd"><td bgcolor="#ffffff"></td><td><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>
</td><td>Re(1): Why Poker is so hard...
by Zeropants on 5/4/2006 12:19 </td><td><nobr>
</nobr> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td bgcolor="#ffffff"></td><td colspan="2"><table celspacing="0" border="0" cellpadding="2"><tbody><tr><td>How often your opponent folds to a raise.
What hands your opponent has been taking to the showdown.
How much you've raised pre and post flop in recent time. (do people think you're a bully)
Can the short stack at your table wait for a good hand, or will the blinds take them out?
What hands have you shown after winning, or shown down with?
</td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table> <table bgcolor="#ffffff" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#eeeedd"><td bgcolor="#ffffff"></td><td><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>
</td><td>Re(1): Why Poker is so hard...
by TroubleSuit on 5/4/2006 12:20 </td><td><nobr>
</nobr> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td bgcolor="#ffffff"></td><td colspan="2"><table celspacing="0" border="0" cellpadding="2"><tbody><tr><td>11. Your opponents frame of mind at this time. Did they just take a horrible beat.
12. Your opponents Image, loose player, tight player, passive agressive.
13. Your table image. (regardless of if you have had a run of good cards, if you have raised 3 hands this orbit you look very loose agressive)
</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> -
The #1 biggest mistake the average player makes is assuming he will get his "fair" share of hands dealt. Namely everyone gets the same average cards over time.
FALSE never happens ever.....
#2 Would be playing over his head without realizing it. bankroll issues
#3 Thinking skill wins a big MTT...lmao yeah right! -
I see this so often. Players shoving bc they think they are shorter than they are. My friend wanted to shove j7s with 7500 at 300/600 on the button because of this. Some people just don't know.
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The biggest mistake I've seen average players make is thinking they have it all figured out...so they stop trying to learn as aggressively as they did when they first started. An MTT win, a good run at a cash table, beating up their home game, etc...probably does them more harm than good when they are at this stage.
Then they blow a bunch of money chasing that early success they found and end up blaming the other players, the cards, "poker is rigged", etc.
Story I wish I had heard a long time ago....Sheets (btw, one of the most articulate teachers online...when I joined PXF I found myself watching Bax and listening to Sheets, if that makes any sense) on the P5's Podcast talking about his learning process. Reading a few books, then getting the chance to talk with members of "the crew" and getting to review some of Gank's hand histories....realizing there is a whole other level of the game being played. I had a similar epiphany when I joined realpokertraining about a year ago....I started watching the videos and was like "wait....you can do THAT?! My books didn't mention this....".
There are many layers to the onion, and the sooner the average player realizes this....the more likely it is they will continue trying to learn the game. Investing in one or several of the online poker schools is money really well spent for the average player. If they can afford it, private coaching or a mentor is also gold. I've only spent a few hours on the phone with NSXT (also an excellent teacher), but having access to a player of that caliber really helps with the why and when of some of the concepts listed above and gets you actively thinking about and understanding the game.
My .02 cents. -
nice example roooothlus. 10 BB is short but you have 20-30 pockets to wait to get ak (or maybe aq from late) or JJ and up to raise and steal or see a flop.
--tc -
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet, but bankroll management. Especially reading Fox's basic bankroll management is very helpful. I see people posting about blowing bankroll on blackjack and sports betting, keep a seperate poker bankroll and "other" gambling account if you seriously want to build up a bankroll. This is particularly a problem on Paradise I think because they are directly linked to sportsbooks and online casinos.
Another bankroll issue is playing above your limits, if you have $22 left in your account, it's better to play 3 SNGs than a 1000+ person MTT going for the big score, that's a quick way to lose deposit after deposit.
Also don't turn on the computer, if you are angry about something, depressed, drunk, high, or any other mind state that is going to shred your bankroll with poor play.
In cash games and MTT, be able to recognize when your overpair is beat. If you have Aces and 2 people call your raise preflop, and the flop is 7-8-9, you could be drawing basically dead already, don't get all pissed off because 5-6 cracked your aces, be smart and toss them if you are raised significantly or min check raised.
Don't bother with hands like K-J, Q-10, K-Q, any A-2 thru A-9 in the early stages of SNG or MTT, they are just trap hands. Later on in the tourney their value increases greatly, but they are pretty garbage hands early to mid tourney. -
Good posts DeliChief and Junsie. DeliChef you are absolutely right, the truly great players spend a lot of time studying and replaying hands, just like a chess grandmaster would do. It would also save people a lot of money if they joined a good teaching site. And all the ones you mentioned are well worth it. I visited Sheets and Bax's site and just by looking over one way Bax played a hand, it helped me in my next mtt. I will definitely be joining a couple of those in the near future.
Supernova, you mentioned in your post payinng attention and that is true. When I have several or 4-5 games going it can be overwhelming. If someone has the same problem, it might be good to try and first place notes on the people your left, because one has position most of the time on the guys on your right. And then you can add notes from there.
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