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The "I'm In Denial" All-In Shove & Your Brain

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  1. NuclearSteve NuclearSteve is offline

    Sterling, VA
    United States

    Posts: 1,006
    Joined: Aug 05

    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 12:34pm)

    How many of you do this too often, or, some variation of this? It's late and you've been playing an MTT for a couple hours now. Blinds are 300/600 with antes. You are in the SB and a player limps in LP. You have A/9 offsuit and you complete. For now, ignore the fact that a reraise might be the best move right there. Anyway, the flop comes

    9d 5h 2d

    You are first to act and check with the intention of check-raising. The BB checks and the LP limper raises. Everything is going according to your plan and you make the reraise. The BB folds and the limper CALLS your reraise. An ugly third diamond comes on the turn. There is about 10,000 in the pot and your remaining stack is also 10,000.

    Even though the limper called your reraise (a great sign that he is drawing), you are in denial that he could've hit his flush. Your mind doesn't want to believe it because then you have to deal with the disappointment of losing a big pot and becoming a short stack late in the tournament. So, your mind tricks you and you find yourself thinking "hey donkey-ass, now is my chance to represent the flush!" So, you push all-in and then regret the HELL out of it when he insta-calls with the King high flush.

    I'm pretty sure the all-in denial shove is the minds way of trying to protect you from disappointment. HEY BRAIN, QUIT FUCKING WITH ME AND JUST LET ME PLAY SOLID POKER!!

    Can anyone relate?
  2. jfiiue4 jfiiue4 is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 12:39pm) in reply to NuclearSteve

    yup i do it and cross my fingers.
  3. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

    Westland, MI
    United States

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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 12:41pm) in reply to NuclearSteve

    Hate to say it, but you say ignore the fact that you should have raised preflop. But, doing something wrong on one street often leads to these problems. A suited Kingx isn't calling a preflop raise (probably). So, you would have gotten him out of the hand then (maybe not, but at least you played it right).

    Now, you raised a bettor on the flop, and got called, the flush completes, and your in an ugly situation. If you check, he'll represent. If you bet, he might have it.

    Yes, I hate these situations, they are difficult to be in, so I try to do everything I can to avoid them.
  4. HeyNiceAscot HeyNiceAscot is offline

    Tustin, CA
    United States

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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 12:43pm) in reply to lordxixor101

    try a blocking bet for more info rather than shoving
  5. derbywhite derbywhite is offline

    Matlock
    United Kingdom

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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 12:52pm) in reply to HeyNiceAscot

    Horrible hand to play. I would have just been super weak and folded in that spot. Because I'm a donk :)
  6. joepups joepups is offline

    Cold Lake
    Canada

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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 12:53pm) in reply to HeyNiceAscot

    The way i save chips is i call instead of pushing, I only push if i am first to act and the flop comes then I represent IT.

    Just my 3 cent

    JoePup
  7. NuclearSteve NuclearSteve is offline

    Sterling, VA
    United States

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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 1:33pm) in reply to lordxixor101

    Yeah - I agree lordxix. Mistakes on previous streets lead to bad situations on subsequent streets. I should've raised pre, especially with a weak ace.
    Thread Starter
  8. pzane pzane is offline

    Washington, DC
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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 1:48pm) in reply to NuclearSteve

    What's the 3rd diamond? An over?

    Even though this guy showed up with the flush, I don't think I could put that 3rd diamond on completing his flush too often because he bet the flop in position after you checked to him. While I would bet the flush draw too, lots of people will just check in position and try and hit the card. Him betting on the come definetly would make me think he is protecting a weak pair, maybe even just trying to take it down with Ace high.

    That being said, I certainly wouldn't open shove the turn after that last diamond fell, unless maybe it was the Ad and I knew I could redraw to a boat. If your stack is the pot size, I might just check the turn knowing i could be way behind. You've only invested about 4500 of your own chips in a 10k pot. You've still got 10k left (or ~16 bb's). I don't think it should be too hard to get away from top top on a flushed board.
  9. RealLeader RealLeader is offline

    Edmond, OK
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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 2:00pm) in reply to NuclearSteve

    Or you could just over play AK suited in the 22 rebuy because you were on tilt and outrun AA for the chiplead! I'm pretty sure youve done that to me before........
  10. BomboKlaat BomboKlaat is offline

    Bonmont
    Switzerland

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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 2:26pm) in reply to lordxixor101

    ^^^ lord, yes, he definitely should have raised preflop. However, in a small stakes game, the LP limper w Kxsoooooooooted is most likely CALLING his raise. And, in some rare instances, the Kxsooooted limper will even reshove vs his raise from the sb, so I don't think he'd be out of the hand.
  11. NuclearSteve NuclearSteve is offline

    Sterling, VA
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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 2:35pm) in reply to RealLeader

    HAHAHA!!! Shea!! You'll never forget that hand will you? I guess I wouldn't either. Anyway, good to see you are still pissed. :) Don't worry, my boat lost to a straight frush the other day.
    Thread Starter
  12. NuclearSteve NuclearSteve is offline

    Sterling, VA
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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 2:40pm) in reply to pzane

    The third diamond was not an over. I should've been able to get away from it... i'm just not playing too smart lately. Like I said, I got something weird going on, where my head is tricking me into shit I know I shouldn't be doing. It's like I know that I'm beat, or there's a good chance I'm beat, but my brain refuses to accept it and I end up doing something stupid. Weird stuff. I guess I'm posting to help purge this shit from my head.
    Thread Starter
  13. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

    Westland, MI
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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 2:58pm) in reply to BomboKlaat

    Bombo,

    Your right. I play lowstakes, and a suited King might be enough to call a raise. And then, he might hang around and beat you anyway. But, I think good things happen when you play the hand right. In this instance, you might end up with the same result, but at least you made it more difficult on your opponent to beat you.

    Plus, you give your opponent 2 opportunities to get away from the hand. Preflop and after the flop. The way its played, your opponent isn't folding until he's beating you.
  14. BomboKlaat BomboKlaat is offline

    Bonmont
    Switzerland

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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 3:28pm) in reply to lordxixor101

    I completely agree with you here, lord. I made the original post because I do not agree that he would have folded if raised preflop, that's all.
  15. WillieDM3 WillieDM3 is offline

    Florence, AL
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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 3:48pm) in reply to NuclearSteve

    Good post. I do that myself. That is, making a play that I know is wrong because I convice myself that the other player has something other than what I know he has. That's just human nature. Take a desire to win(pride), mix that with a little greed, and we're not always going to make rational decisions. The best we can hope to do is minimize those bad decisions with good discipline.
     
  16. Bruce Figaro Bruce Figaro is offline

    Millbrae, CA
    United States

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    Apr 5th, 2007 (4/5/2007 3:48pm) in reply to NuclearSteve

    I know what u mean about shoving when your instincts are telling you youre beat. when i find myself doing this in mtts I make this a kind of a mantra to counteract it: If I have more than 12bbs behind, I will not go broke with 1pair after the flop unless I'm SURE* I'm ahead. Doesn't matter if I have top pair-top kicker or pocket A-A, if I have any kind of a stack I won't lose it postflop w/ 1 pair. defensive betting or check-calling the flop are effective ways to keep the pot size undercontrol. also they allow opportunities to reasses where youre at later in the hand. i'm looking to bust people who cant get off top pair or an overpair, im not looking to be one of those people, no matter how badly i might want to take down a specific pot.

    *poker sure, not sure sure obv.
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