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Interesting 25/50nl hand with ak87

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  1. abdaar abdaar is offline

    Beverly Hills, CA
    United States

    Posts: 85
    Joined: Feb 07

    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 7:29pm)

    Don't know about the history between the two or anything, just wondering what people put him on to justify calling the river bet.

    Full Tilt Poker Game #3472250922: Table Rock Port (6 max) - $25/$50 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:20:05 ET - 2007/09/05
    Seat 1: -AKwow- ($6,694)
    Seat 2: what a donk ($925)
    Seat 3: baDONKaD0NK88 ($4,985)
    Seat 4: boycie56 ($6,438)
    Seat 5: Semifaded ($2,924)
    Seat 6: mortonpoker ($4,900)
    baDONKaD0NK88 posts the small blind of $25
    boycie56 posts the big blind of $50
    The button is in seat #2
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Semifaded folds
    mortonpoker raises to $200
    -AKwow- calls $200
    what a donk folds
    baDONKaD0NK88 folds
    boycie56 folds
    *** FLOP *** [7c 4s 5d]
    mortonpoker checks
    -AKwow- bets $350
    mortonpoker calls $350
    *** TURN *** [7c 4s 5d] [Kd]
    mortonpoker bets $1,075
    -AKwow- has 15 seconds left to act
    -AKwow- has requested TIME
    -AKwow- calls $1,075
    *** RIVER *** [7c 4s 5d Kd] [7h]
    mortonpoker bets $3,275, and is all in
    -AKwow- has 15 seconds left to act
    -AKwow- has requested TIME
    -AKwow- calls $3,275
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    mortonpoker shows [3h 3s] two pair, Sevens and Threes
    -AKwow- mucks
    mortonpoker wins the pot ($9,872) with two pair, Sevens and Threes
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $9,875 | Rake $3
    Board: [7c 4s 5d Kd 7h]
    Seat 1: -AKwow- mucked
    Seat 2: what a donk (button) didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 3: baDONKaD0NK88 (small blind) folded before the Flop
    Seat 4: boycie56 (big blind) folded before the Flop
    Seat 5: Semifaded didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 6: mortonpoker collected ($9,872)
  2. Micdiddy Micdiddy is offline

    Santa Barbara, CA
    United States

    Posts: 1,688
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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 7:35pm) in reply to abdaar

    obv cash game chip dump
  3. AK87 AK87 is offline

    Ambler, PA
    United States

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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 7:37pm) in reply to Micdiddy

    This was one of the craziest hands I've ever played
  4. Rocket Surgeon Rocket Surgeon is offline & brain scientist

    United States

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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 7:42pm) in reply to AK87

    I'd say so.
  5. AJKHoosier1 AJKHoosier1 is offline

    Los Angeles, CA
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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 7:45pm) in reply to abdaar

    25/50 is a prty sick fkn game online... i can only imagine what kinda monkeytastic table dynamic/history there musta been for this call to be made... id bet theres a better reason than you think though.
    131
  6. AK87 AK87 is offline

    Ambler, PA
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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 7:53pm) in reply to AJKHoosier1

    I thought he was bluffing, the only problem is, I didn't account for 33 being in his bluffing range. lol
  7. Green Plastic Green Plastic is offline

    Chicago, IL
    United States

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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 7:54pm) in reply to AJKHoosier1

    well it seems pretty obvious to me what happend, alex, chime in if i'm wrong.

    you either had 22 or A high, raised, made a std cbet. the guy's turn bet seems relaly fish. did the king help him? why would he lead so big with a hand like that if he wants action? looks more like he has something like A6 or some sort of combo draw. he's never leading like this with a 7, it just doesn't make much sense (what does he do if he is raised?).

    the river pairs the 7. how does that help him? answer: it doesn't. he shoves all in. he probably won't even play a king this way.... possibly if he has QK or AK... but why does he call flop with QK? why does he lead when the king hits (i could make a case for this every once in awhile, but not usually)? Why would he even have AK in this spot?

    so basically, the guy turns 33 into a bluff. alex calls because he knows the guy is bluffing, the guy is bluffing, alex just can't beat him. i'm guessing alex has 22 or AQ/AJ.

    am i right?

    tc
  8. Mkind16 Mkind16 is offline

    Manalapan, NJ
    United States

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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 7:55pm) in reply to AK87

    Dam. U shoulda made a value fold.
    1
  9. Green Plastic Green Plastic is offline

    Chicago, IL
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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 7:57pm) in reply to Green Plastic

    oops i thought alex raised PF - i didnt realize he just flat called. the guy could have AK in this spot but QK or worse (with a king) seems pretty unlikely.

    tc
  10. Mkind16 Mkind16 is offline

    Manalapan, NJ
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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 7:57pm) in reply to Green Plastic

    It would be so balla if he called w/ like QJ high.
    1
  11. AK87 AK87 is offline

    Ambler, PA
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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 7:59pm) in reply to Green Plastic

    Yes that was very similar to my thought process but I didn't want to tell everyone. lol
  12. Green Plastic Green Plastic is offline

    Chicago, IL
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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 8:02pm) in reply to Mkind16

    also i think this is a tough hand to try to snap off a bluff like this.. there are so many hands he is bluffing with here that can beat you.

    tc
  13. Green Plastic Green Plastic is offline

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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 8:03pm) in reply to AK87

    oops sorry.
  14. Binksy Binksy is offline

    Bournemouth
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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 8:44pm) in reply to Green Plastic

    I think Ak's opponent may also have been thinking along the same lines.
  15. kdogpenny1 kdogpenny1 is offline

    Aliso Viejo, CA
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    Sep 5th, 2007 (9/5/2007 11:01pm) in reply to Green Plastic

    honestly, thats a pretty great analysis. No wonder you ball out. I feel smarter just reading this post as opposed to the instant 3 IQ point drop from most hand analyses.
  16. Green Plastic Green Plastic is offline

    Chicago, IL
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    Sep 6th, 2007 (9/6/2007 2:13am) in reply to kdogpenny1

    thanks. i messed it up a little b/c i thought alex raised PF.

    these are the types of analysis you need to be doing on a regular basis if you want to beat cash games at the medium to high levels. this hand was crazy only because the guy showed up with a bluff that beat what alex called with...other then that...it's the type of bluff that good cash game players will snap off all of the time.

    i see hopeless bluffs like this time and time again -- it's usually a guy who is new to cash games and ends out playing a marginal hand (pre or post flop) and then has to try to dig himself out of a hole by making a wild bluff.

    i highly recommend finding some place that you can have regular in depth hand analysis discussions if you really want to beat cash games.

    tc
  17. rivverkiller rivverkiller is offline

    White Rock
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    Sep 6th, 2007 (9/6/2007 2:16am) in reply to Green Plastic

    I hear cardrunners.com is an excellent place for this... ;)
     
  18. busto_soon busto_soon is offline

    Groningen
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    Sep 6th, 2007 (9/6/2007 2:40am) in reply to abdaar

    How about shoving the turn?
    269 3
  19. amak316 amak316 is offline

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    Sep 6th, 2007 (9/6/2007 3:02am) in reply to busto_soon

    why shove the turn when you have showdown value according to your read.

    33 is like the only bluffing hand that beats alex im assuming.

    if you shove the turn you can get him off 33, but your costing yourself the river bet for the times he has a hand you beat (which should be most of the time in this spot)
     
  20. Zota15 Zota15 is offline

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    Sep 6th, 2007 (9/6/2007 4:26am) in reply to amak316

    Holy crap this guy took you to value town!
  21. zizazu zizazu is offline

    Kilmarnock
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    Sep 6th, 2007 (9/6/2007 6:29am) in reply to Zota15

    GP, you dont think he shows up with a set here sometimes ?
  22. Green Plastic Green Plastic is offline

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    Sep 6th, 2007 (9/6/2007 10:11am) in reply to zizazu

    i think he shows up with a set maybe 10% of the time, max. Turn shove isn't the worst but you are going to see your volatility shoot through the roof if you are making plays like this. It kind of depends what alex has - shoving with a hand like 6A on the turn where you have 8-11 outs isn't a bad play. but again, if your read is the guy is bluffing, you are better off just snapping him off if you think he's missed the river.

    The whole problem with this play wasn't alex's thought process, it was the fact that there are quite a few bluffing hands on this board that beat him. 33 being one of them, but more likely a hand like 46, 56, 34, even 66 (less likely).

    tc
  23. Pod the Bod Pod the Bod is offline

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    Sep 6th, 2007 (9/6/2007 10:52am) in reply to Green Plastic

    Great analysis as always GP but I don't think that a hand like 66 can possibly be in his range here... if it is, then that would actually make his river shove a value bet IMO. Nobody is folding a hand that beats 66, but as we see here, it is completely legitimate to make the river call with PLENTY of hands that are behind.
  24. Green Plastic Green Plastic is offline

    Chicago, IL
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    Sep 6th, 2007 (9/6/2007 1:14pm) in reply to Pod the Bod

    i agree that 66 isn't shoving here that often.

    if he shoves 66 all in it is because he if bluffing, not because he puts the guy on 5A and wants him to call. The guy could have made the same play with 66 - i mean if he bets the turn and gets called, what does he put the other player on? he's bluffing the river, imo.

    tc
  25. AK87 AK87 is offline

    Ambler, PA
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    Sep 6th, 2007 (9/6/2007 1:16pm) in reply to Green Plastic

    I had AJdd and shoving turn seems like it's best play in hindsight.
  26. ch0ppy ch0ppy is offline

    Waterloo
    Canada

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    Sep 6th, 2007 (9/6/2007 1:27pm) in reply to AK87

    No way, 33 is the top of his range.

    U WANT THAT VALUE on the the river.

    U shove turn, U dont get that value!
    11 11
  27. TheJacob TheJacob is offline

    Rocky Mount, NC
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    Sep 6th, 2007 (9/6/2007 1:36pm) in reply to Micdiddy

    obv value bet
  28. Pod the Bod Pod the Bod is offline

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    Sep 7th, 2007 (9/7/2007 12:45am) in reply to Green Plastic

    "The guy could have made the same play with 66 - i mean if he bets the turn and gets called, what does he put the other player on?"

    Do you really think that the shover believes that AK87 is folding anything that beats 66 here? Lets consider some of these possible holdings...

    Any 7 or flopped straight... no

    pp's 88-QQ... disregarding the fact that we now know that AK87 is willing to make semi-loose read dependent calls on the river, it is safe to say that this kind of hand is a very unlikely holding... most players would 4-bet preflop, or at least make a raise after the flop... and there is no way one cold-calls with one of these pairs after the turn... I don't put any of these in AK's range

    KK-AA... 6-handed, slowplaying one of these two hands is completely legitimate, and there is no way either of them are being mucked on the river

    IMO none of these hands would fit the bill to make shoving with 66 a bluff... rather a very solid value bet

    ***EDIT***... I suppose that it could be a "hopeless bluff," but I am giving this player credit... perhaps said credit is undeserved?
  29. Green Plastic Green Plastic is offline

    Chicago, IL
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    Sep 7th, 2007 (9/7/2007 11:00pm) in reply to Pod the Bod

    first of all, you never know what the other guy is thinking. people make all kind of crazy plays that defy logic. this sort of was a hopeless bluff, that ended out working. his line makes no sense at all, so how can we know he wont do this with 66 (or anything, for that matter)?

    there are a lot of times guys are just bluffing - they are frustrated so they just make a very stupid play -- this kinda looks like it was done here, he just got lucky he had the best hand.

    tc

    this is a pretty high level hand to analyze - a hand like this comes up once every 10k hands so its not like you are going to need to play hands like this routinely in order to be a winning cash game player. you are, however, going to need to have good fundamental play and solid hand reading abilities, which ak87 obviously has.
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