Alright so heres the breakdown, this final table consists of a bunch of solid regs including the villain in this hand, Aretheseutz. We are only a few orbits into this final table, but I can already tell its not going to be an overly aggressive table. So far I've been able to keep my stack fluctuating by stealing the blinds liberally and also making well timed 3-bets, which have faced little opposition. A few hands prior to this Utz doubled up, which I wasn't happy to see because he has position on me and now he has some chips to make my life difficult. Also notice that there are several shorter stacks at the table. I know that this villain is a very good deep thinking player capable of taking all kinds of creative lines post flop, and also very capable of floating flops with air in hopes of taking the hand down on later streets.

This is going to be a little exercise in trying to figure what range of hands I would be playing the way I played this hand, and also which hands Utz could have based on how he plays his hand. Also try to come up with what range of hands I should be calling with on the river based on the action and the table dynamics. Also, be aware that Utz snap shoved the river. Don't be afraid to think a little out of the box on this one...

<span>Stage#151882759 Tourney ID 5184182 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit 2,500 -2010-04-18 21:05:33.011 (ET) [ 2010-04-18 21:05:33 ]
Table: 27 (Real Money) Seat #1 is the dealer
Seat 1 - ARE THESE UTZ (97,769 in chips)
Seat 2 - FUTUREPROQQ (77,222 in chips)
Seat 4 - AKAT11 (42,780 in chips)
Seat 5 - DIAGF ZPACE (311,781 in chips)
Seat 6 - PEARLJAMMED (78,288 in chips)
Seat 7 - CHIPSTEELA (124,507 in chips)
Seat 8 - WORLDSGRTEST (64,260 in chips)
Seat 9 - THE_BUZZ (46,393 in chips)
ARE THESE UTZ - Ante 200
FUTUREPROQQ - Ante 200
AKAT11 - Ante 200
DIAGF ZPACE - Ante 200
PEARLJAMMED - Ante 200
CHIPSTEELA - Ante 200
WORLDSGRTEST - Ante 200
THE_BUZZ - Ante 200
FUTUREPROQQ - Posts small blind 1,250
AKAT11 - Posts big blind 2,500
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to CHIPSTEELA [x x]
DIAGF ZPACE - Folds
PEARLJAMMED - Folds
CHIPSTEELA - Raises 5,850 to 5,850
WORLDSGRTEST - Folds
THE_BUZZ - Folds
ARE THESE UTZ - Calls 5,850
FUTUREPROQQ - Folds
AKAT11 - Folds (Preselection)
*** FLOP *** [7h 10d 8s]
CHIPSTEELA - Bets 9,850
ARE THESE UTZ - Calls 9,850
*** TURN *** [7h 10d 8s] [5h]
CHIPSTEELA - Checks
ARE THESE UTZ - Bets 19,250
CHIPSTEELA - Calls 19,250
*** RIVER *** [7h 10d 8s 5h] [Kc]
CHIPSTEELA - Checks
ARE THESE UTZ - All-In 62,619

</span>

Hi Chip,
Assuming you called the river i think AK /ATsuited is in your range, knowing the villain is a deep thinking player that can float the flop and bluff later on.
I also thin 66,77,88,TT, JJ is in your range. I dont think you are checking the turn and river with QQ+.
Also there are a couple of suited cards that may be in your range, KT, TJ, etc.

About UTZ i think 44 - 99 is in his range and suited connectors like 89, 9T, TJ. I dont think he flats pre with TT+, AK, AQ.

the river doesnt bother me much, i think he is shipping there regardless of what the river is, and you are calling regardless, unless u had AK.

Oh yea and if you saw the hand plz don't ruin it, I will post results after we get some good discussion going.

On a side not I obv wasn't thinking clearly when I denied the even chop 3 handed w my 6:1 cl on 2nd and 3rd, shoulda taken that in a heartbeat.

UTZ has QJ/AA/KK imo

This tournament will forever haunt me

 

Originally Posted by jdpc27

would be really tempted to call with say A10 here, but i think i would punk out and end up tossing it....so in terms of what i am realistically calling with, i think i would have to have a king in my hand or JJ-QQ, and would tank the shit out of hands like A10,k10,99.

JD

i mean if youre calling JJ you should be calling 66 no? and maybe worse

fuckin over this hand, just wrote 2 paragraphs on it and deleted it. any hand of yours that gets to the river with that line is going to essentially play the same though so its more about assigning a bluff frequency to him than a calling range to you

I think you had something like 86 98 J8 and talked yourself into the river.

you might be able to make some big folds, but with the stacks and bet sizing up to and on the turn, are you ever really folding regardless of what the river card is?

Based on the information given, I would say that you might have a hand in the range of A9 or Q9. I cant see you calling that turn bet, though, without some sort of showdown value. This leads me to believe that you could have some kind of hand in the range of 44-66 and sometimes A7. Its possible you picked up a redraw on the turn, but its more than likely that you might have jammed or sped up on that card if you had.

For the villain, his range could be ATC above say a 95os. His button call doesn't gives us any information that will help us on the flop. I cant really pin down where the villain is in this hand though. His line leaves it open to be as strong as 64hh or as weak as QJos. His river shove isnt anything out of the ordinary since the pot is more than his stack. IMO its a smart play because if you have a medium-weak hand you are going to have to put your chiplead at stake to find out. If he has the nuts, it looks like a steal which you might call. On that same token, its too strong of a bet for weaker players to call down with say middle pair.

Now lets hear what actually happened so I can be embarrassed at my horrible reads lol!

 

Originally Posted by jdpc27

his ship on the river makes my head spin....it smells of a busted combo draw, like a 910 type hand, but i'm unsure where to really put him as he just isnt repping anything...its more of a nuts or air thing even tho it feels more like he is turning a marginal showdown hand into a bluff...

There are some major clues in this statement. Also consider what hands he is realistically flatting here with a reg in the bb with such a perfect resteal stack.

Some hand he doesnt want to 3 bet and be math commited to a shove from big blind...I assume middle pocket pairs and broadways cards like KQ, KJ or A8, A9

If you are planning to fold the river, you are just better check folding the turn.
Otherwise, you have to call the river specially if you know he knows you can make disciplined folds...If this is true, then it is more profitable for him to make a small value in the river if he spiked a K. This leaves more possible the option of him making a bluff.

If hes turning a showdown hand into a bluff I guess he believes hes not good in a showdown and wants to get you fold a hand like 99, AT, JT..

If he is on a pure bluff, it doesnt make sense to him to bluff the turn to make that big pot and desist on the river, so pure bluffs are a good part of his range as well.
I believe he has A8,A9,99 and you have 99,TJ.

you keep hinting that his range is not necessarily polarized but i dont think its realistic to expect him to turn a hand like 79/T9/JT into a bluff often enough to make it very relevant. a lot of those hands check back the turn at least some significant percentage of the time because b/f them would be terrible and b/c marginal. and its hard to see a hand like that instashipping the river without at least some thought of checking down with some showdown value

 

Originally Posted by RoyalCrusher

you keep hinting that his range is not necessarily polarized but i dont think its realistic to expect him to turn a hand like 79/T9/JT into a bluff often enough to make it very relevant. a lot of those hands check back the turn at least some significant percentage of the time because b/f them would be terrible and b/c marginal. and its hard to see a hand like that instashipping the river without at least some thought of checking down with some showdown value

You're right, it isn't realistic to think that he's going to turn these hands with marginal showdown value into bluffs that often, however you have to at least consider it a possibility against a good thinking player like this who has good hand reading skills in a spot where my hand is almost always never stronger then one pair.

 

Originally Posted by Chipsteela

You're right, it isn't realistic to think that he's going to turn these hands with marginal showdown value into bluffs that often, however you have to at least consider it a possibility against a good thinking player like this who has good hand reading skills in a spot where my hand is almost always never stronger then one pair.

It's because your hand is rarely stronger than one pair that makes it the perfect spot to bluff with marginal showdown holdings. And since he gives you credit for thinking that way, he can snap push the river with A10hh expecting you to fold JJ when the King hits...

...or call with J9.

Now, what really happened?