so as you can see the table was quite easy lol, yea it was a pretty sick table and i had no timebank, which really sucked. So my thoughts on the river are ak87 is a good/tricky player and I def feel like he is capable of floating me twice here with air and bluffing the river. Also, ak87 is on the tighter side which made me think he doesn't try and squeak out value too too thin on the river so I should be betting, idk I have heard a good bit of different responses from people, what do people think about b/f, b/c, ch/call. Just an interesting spot where I would like to get some input about, thanks guys.

PokerStars Game #31571363240: Tournament #185961165, $100+$9 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (4000/8000) - 2009/08/13 2:10:51 ET
Table '185961165 23' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 3: ryanbluf (222754 in chips)
Seat 4: Jovial Gent (436604 in chips)
Seat 5: jadedjason (204356 in chips)
Seat 6: witcherd (585754 in chips)
Seat 7: tysonduke23 (305426 in chips)
Seat 8: AK87 (591149 in chips)
Seat 9: anfo500 (885957 in chips)
ryanbluf: posts the ante 800
Jovial Gent: posts the ante 800
jadedjason: posts the ante 800
witcherd: posts the ante 800
tysonduke23: posts the ante 800
AK87: posts the ante 800
anfo500: posts the ante 800
anfo500: posts small blind 4000
ryanbluf: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to witcherd [7s 8s]
Jovial Gent: folds
jadedjason: folds
witcherd: raises 11845 to 19845
tysonduke23: folds
AK87: calls 19845
anfo500: folds
ryanbluf: folds
*** FLOP *** [8c 6c 3s]
witcherd: bets 31875
AK87: calls 31875
*** TURN *** [8c 6c 3s] [2c]
witcherd: bets 72485
AK87: calls 72485
*** RIVER *** [8c 6c 3s 2c] [7h]
witcherd: ????????????

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I think you get taken to value town by 45 almost every time in this spot.

 

Originally Posted by m_hawk_1

I think you get taken to value town by 45 almost every time in this spot.

I think a flush is way way more likely then 45

lol at this final table.

If you think he's capable of floating you twice (which is def. possible here since he flatted on the button) then check/call give him a chance to bluff at it. I think there is some value in betting but it's going to be pretty gay if you get shipped on.

Another vote for c/c crowd.

Betting Preflop, Flop and Turn then folding the river when you actually improve your hand is uber silly. I'm not a big fan of how this played out in the first place, but as played I check and pick off his river bluff.

b/c

This is a pretty interesting spot, and my line would vary based on my opponent. I dont know much about AK87's game or how wide he is flatting your opens at this point. Lets assign a range of like any pair, 22-QQ. I would imagine he would be 3betting KK AA this deepstackd but there is a chance he could flat here as well. Also many suited connectors as well.

By his flats on the flop and turn, we can basically tighten his range to hands with showdown value or possible combo draws or a made hand like 45. I rarely think he is flatting two bets with air here. Therefore on the river we are basically only losing to 45 or a flush(being that we now have top two). I think we should def be bet/folding this river. We beat many hands that will call a river bet, but none that will shove, and i dont think there are enough bluffs in his range to warrant turning our hand into a "bluff catcher" by c/c.

 

Originally Posted by Frank1The1Tank

I really don't think AK87 has a flush here often (does he really just call 2 streets after flatting a raise with a FD or a straight draw for that matter?) He could have double floated with you T9 or flatted flop with a set and then just flatted turn. I think this situation is too read dependent for us to be giving you very accurate responses. b/c, c/c, and b/f are all close and highly player dependent. It also depends on what he thinks of your game and how thin he thinks you'd be value betting here. Hands like these kind of suck because you're relying on us to make reads of AK87 based on what we've seen from him when he'll play differently vs someone like you as opposed to someone else. And if not that, then you're at least giving others the option to use their own reads of him in this situation. Tough spot though for sure, all 3 options seem very close.

def agree, it seemed so close at the time and i really haven't played with him that much so I do ubt he has any clue who I am, and having no time bank was really hard, I think its a really interesting spot though were all 3 are definitely viable as well, it just depends on the read. Do we think that ak87 is capable of shoving hands that i beat here on the river? That's another thing that comes into bet/calling, yea I will post results soon try to get some more discussion, thanks frank and ryan for the good responses. <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

If you say he's tight, then I don't understand why any other line besides check/call should be used?

 

Originally Posted by gutshtallin

This is a pretty interesting spot, and my line would vary based on my opponent. I dont know much about AK87's game or how wide he is flatting your opens at this point. Lets assign a range of like any pair, 22-QQ. I would imagine he would be 3betting KK AA this deepstackd but there is a chance he could flat here as well. Also many suited connectors as well.

By his flats on the flop and turn, we can basically tighten his range to hands with showdown value or possible combo draws or a made hand like 45. I rarely think he is flatting two bets with air here. Therefore on the river we are basically only losing to 45 or a flush(being that we now have top two). I think we should def be bet/folding this river. We beat many hands that will call a river bet, but none that will shove, and i dont think there are enough bluffs in his range to warrant turning our hand into a "bluff catcher" by c/c.

obviously not on your level at all, but isnt a c/c alot give a lot more value than b/f (and be a little less spewy) because we're also giving him a chance to bluff ?

 

Originally Posted by MoneyOr2

obviously not on your level at all, but isnt a c/c alot give a lot more value than b/f (and be a little less spewy) because we're also giving him a chance to bluff ?

Like I said, i dont think there are enough bluffs in his range here often enough to warrant enough value in c/c. I think your hand is strong enough to bet for value, but obv having to fold to shove..Like czar19 said..i bet roughly 1/2 pot and fold to a shove.

bet/call and bet/fold are gonna be really close, and pretty read dependent. i think check/call is awful tho, as this is really a terrible board to double float on, and he's going to snap check back way too much of his range to make check/call profitable. check/fold is probably going to be better than c/c

 

Originally Posted by witcher1984

well pretty over the discussion, here is the hand and results, yea having no time bank rly sucks

PokerStars Game #31571363240: Tournament #185961165, $100+$9 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (4000/8000) - 2009/08/13 2:10:51 ET
Table '185961165 23' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 3: ryanbluf (222754 in chips)
Seat 4: Jovial Gent (436604 in chips)
Seat 5: jadedjason (204356 in chips)
Seat 6: witcherd (585754 in chips)
Seat 7: tysonduke23 (305426 in chips)
Seat 8: AK87 (591149 in chips)
Seat 9: anfo500 (885957 in chips)
ryanbluf: posts the ante 800
Jovial Gent: posts the ante 800
jadedjason: posts the ante 800
witcherd: posts the ante 800
tysonduke23: posts the ante 800
AK87: posts the ante 800
anfo500: posts the ante 800
anfo500: posts small blind 4000
ryanbluf: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to witcherd [7s 8s]
Jovial Gent: folds
jadedjason: folds
witcherd: raises 11845 to 19845
tysonduke23: folds
AK87: calls 19845
anfo500: folds
ryanbluf: folds
*** FLOP *** [8c 6c 3s]
witcherd: bets 31875
AK87: calls 31875
*** TURN *** [8c 6c 3s] [2c]
witcherd: bets 72485
AK87: calls 72485
*** RIVER *** [8c 6c 3s 2c] [7h]
witcherd: checks
AK87: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
witcherd: shows [7s 8s] (two pair, Eights and Sevens)
AK87: mucks hand
witcherd collected 266010 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 266010 | Rake 0
Board [8c 6c 3s 2c 7h]
Seat 3: ryanbluf (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Jovial Gent folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: jadedjason folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: witcherd showed [7s 8s] and won (266010) with two pair, Eights and Sevens
Seat 7: tysonduke23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: AK87 (button) mucked [Ah 3h]
Seat 9: anfo500 (small blind) folded before Flop

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I dunno I would probably umm try playing better.

 

Originally Posted by Gags30

bet/call and bet/fold are gonna be really close, and pretty read dependent. i think check/call is awful tho, as this is really a terrible board to double float on, and he's going to snap check back way too much of his range to make check/call profitable. check/fold is probably going to be better than c/c

i agree that check/call is terrible here. i dont think hes ever gonna shove/bluff this river just cause its a terrible line for this board and makes the rest of his line make like no sense (frank said flushes dont really make sense and well hed have to flat 45s here pre which hes not gonna do too too often but idk much about him). i def think hes just trying to get the pot to showdown and he 100% can have 99-AA here. Ya he can have a set but he cant really shove for value cause nothing short of a straight/flush will call on this board. And like someone else said hes rarely going to double float you here with total air. For all these reasons it seems to be a pretty clear bet/fold.

 

Originally Posted by ImaLucSac

I dunno I would probably umm try playing better.

er such hate, yea i agree betting is the best line, i had 12 secs to make a decision or my hand was dead obv with 0 timebank so at the time it wasn't the most obvious bet/f. Thanks dylan tho <3. <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">