1. hey guys, here is a hand i just played. no reads/stats on any players since i just got moved to the table. will give my thoughts to the hand after i got some answers so i can get some perspectives on this thing. just feel like this is a weird hand given the cold call / stack sizes / OOP and so on!

    PokerStars Hand #83521456416: Tournament #2012070060, $8.00+$0.80 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XIV (250/500) - 2012/07/19 0:05:38 CET [2012/07/18 18:05:38 ET]
    Table '2012070060 212' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 1: Siab2387 (9362 in chips)
    Seat 2: Puyolko35 (4926 in chips)
    Seat 3: TommySeebach (9002 in chips)
    Seat 4: Mr Chips 79 (17921 in chips)
    Seat 5: Yalami (6068 in chips)
    Seat 6: chicdinner (23048 in chips)
    Seat 7: Sn4pC4ll! (28435 in chips)
    Seat 8: ZodiakGB (19285 in chips)
    Seat 9: kariwari (17543 in chips)
    Siab2387: posts the ante 60
    Puyolko35: posts the ante 60
    TommySeebach: posts the ante 60
    Mr Chips 79: posts the ante 60
    Yalami: posts the ante 60
    chicdinner: posts the ante 60
    Sn4pC4ll!: posts the ante 60
    ZodiakGB: posts the ante 60
    kariwari: posts the ante 60
    Sn4pC4ll!: posts small blind 250
    ZodiakGB: posts big blind 500
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Sn4pC4ll! [Jh Js]
    kariwari: folds
    Siab2387: folds
    Puyolko35: raises 4366 to 4866 and is all-in
    TommySeebach: folds
    Mr Chips 79: folds
    Yalami: folds
    chicdinner: calls 4866
    Sn4pC4ll!:
    Add ImAllinHoney to Rail
  2. With no prior information on your opponents this seems to be a pretty difficult spot, but if it was me I would be jam ISOing in this spot. Better chance then not that you are good here in this spot.
    Add Wheres My Kiss to Rail
  3. In a $8 tourney I'm iso jamming here most of the time. Most players don't understand shove and call ranges in MTT so they can be calling fairly light.....hands like A9,A10 and KQ.
     
    Add mdshack14 to Rail
  4. Fold. jamming 56bbs in this spot is not EV... I would iso with reads..
    Add OHNONOTME to Rail
  5.  
    Originally Posted by OHNONOTME View Post

    Fold. jamming 56bbs in this spot is not EV... I would iso with reads..


    Fold? What is your rational for folding here?
     
    Add mdshack14 to Rail
  6. folding is the best option here because, a cold call can be assumed as it beats the shoving range, or better than 50-50, so both players ranges become unknown to you, you will not be sure of what kind of range both players have. you might beat shoving range, but i think you are equal with the cold call player's range.. so here it comes another play that might be optimal with reads, which is isolating, so folding is best option here with 56bbs.
    Raise
    Add OHNONOTME to Rail
  7. the advice in this thread is absolutely awful

    it's a shove and its not even close
    1
    Add Shrubbery to Rail
  8. I might agree if you explain..
    Add OHNONOTME to Rail
  9. its seems obvious. its not as if most players in this tourney are just flatting with better than JJ. you are way ahead of initial raisers range and flatters as well. SHOVE all day. sorry you got beat etc...gg move on to the next one.
    Raise
    Add aupoker1 to Rail
  10.  
    Originally Posted by Shrubbery View Post

    the advice in this thread is absolutely awful

    it's a shove and its not even close

    +1 take it from Shrubbery its a shove
     
    Add kevmode to Rail
  11.  
    Originally Posted by OHNONOTME View Post

    folding is the best option here because, a cold call can be assumed as it beats the shoving range, or better than 50-50, so both players ranges become unknown to you, you will not be sure of what kind of range both players have. you might beat shoving range, but i think you are equal with the cold call player's range.. so here it comes another play that might be optimal with reads, which is isolating, so folding is best option here with 56bbs.

    Oh dear!
    You are assuming a LOT about both the shover's range and the cold caller's range.
    Add thearthurdog to Rail
  12. think i'll wait a few more hours till i show the rest of the hands and give my thoughts on it since the discussion in this one seems pretty much polarized...
    Edited By: ImAllinHoney Jul 19th, 2012 at 10:28 PM
    Thread StarterAdd ImAllinHoney to Rail
  13.  
    Originally Posted by OHNONOTME View Post

    I might agree if you explain..

    You literally have to peg the flatters range as QQ+ AQo+ to make it unprofitable, and his range is much much wider than that. Even against that certain range you're only a 43 to 57 underdog. Folding this hand is absurd.

    Not to mention the added equity of crushing the shover's range plus the fact that those two will often be sharing cards.
    Edited By: Shrubbery Jul 19th, 2012 at 11:47 PM
    1
    Raise
    Add Shrubbery to Rail
  14. Right now (could be different yesterday) I "closed eye shove" and prey the flater to not be slowplaying a premium... I am not as good at math than the pros so not deep thinking reply from me ..
    Add Lenail to Rail
  15.  
    Originally Posted by Shrubbery View Post

    You literally have to peg the flatters range as QQ+ AQo+ to make it unprofitable, and his range is much much wider than that. Even against that certain range you're only a 43 to 57 underdog. Folding this hand is absurd.

    Not to mention the added equity of crushing the shover's range plus the fact that those two will often be sharing cards.

    you totally nailed it! great post sir!
    i tanked this hand for an internet eternity (40 seconds or so, haha) trying to imagine which hands i would coldcall if im in buttons spot.
    actually i dont think there are any hands that play out other than raise or call in that spot but if i would have to pick calling hands it def would be just super strong hands trying to induce potential maniacs behind me to get in the hand.
    but afterall i figured out that i must not assign my range as his range so he might do this with a lot more hands (66+,AT+,KJ+) just trying to play the pot with the shover.
    right from the start i hated folding (seems insane) and did not like calling too much either since this could get us in some tough spots OOP! so only thing left is raising which gotta be a shove.
    after all i think this is just one of those tricky spots where you just decide between a play you dont like and a play that you like even worse.
    main issue for me with jamming was that i had a decent stack in a fishy tournament with a slow blind structure and at first i felt like there would be better spots and i have plenty of time but anyway its about accumulating chips all the time so i just shoved.

     
    Originally Posted by aupoker1 View Post

    . sorry you got beat etc...gg move on to the next one.

    im always wondering why everyone thinks HH are just posted when a play failed. actually i scooped it! i shoved, he snapped me off with AKs and i turn a set for the massive pot. think it shouldnt depend on whether i bink it or not. i just want to know if i made the correct play!

    sorry for the long story. hope this makes sense since i just tiped this really fast.and sorry for my mediocre english.

    thanks for the fast replies!
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd ImAllinHoney to Rail
  16. TY for posting, thought process is really interesting (maybe for other not... wtf haters gonna hate)
    GL for the end of the week, lets bink something !!!!
    Add Lenail to Rail
  17. I wasn't meaning to demean your post. Most of the time though when it seems like an obvious spot and with no reads this is an automatic shove IMO its just someone upset by the result and wanting to be sure they made the right move. Nice to see a non results oriented hh tho. Gl
    Edited By: aupoker1 Jul 20th, 2012 at 02:39 AM
    Reason: Gl not go
    Raise
    Add aupoker1 to Rail
  18. Anything but a jam here is pretty bad. Most players at this level arent very competent and he could be calling with face cards or A9 A10 type hands. If the players bad enough you might even get him to commit the rest of his chips with only a small pair. Id be shocked to see villain turn over QQ+ here. GL in the future OP
    Raise
    Add bighaley21 to Rail