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JJ hand w/ 19bbs $3R FTP

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  1. dreday227 dreday227 is offline

    Los Angeles, CA
    United States

    Posts: 101
    Joined: Sep 06

    Jan 12th, 2010 (1/12/2010 5:14pm)

    whats ur play pre? post?

    villan was typical low limit donk who called too much. Obv woulda been eaiser to jam this pre but i feel that im losing value by shoving. On flop i dont want to automatically give villan credit for a K. I hate to bet/fold w/ my stack. I figured by c/r im getting value from bluffs, draws, and lower pairs. how bad is this?

    http://www.pokerhand.org/?5073495
    963 
  2. lemongello lemongello is offline

    Atlanta, GA
    United States

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    Jan 12th, 2010 (1/12/2010 5:31pm) in reply to dreday227

    I agree with not jamming pre because that comes across as "please don't call" and at these limits you would probably get looked up by the KQ anyways..

    I think the C/R is the wrong way to go because after his raise and your shove he has to call 116k for 278k giving him 2.4 to 1.

    I understand your feelings as well on B/F here.
    I would have liked to see you shove the flop here as there is only 1 over card on the board.

    GL
  3. sct123 sct123 is offline

    Fairfield, CT
    United States

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    Jan 12th, 2010 (1/12/2010 5:41pm) in reply to dreday227

    C/r is about the worse...your polarizing ur range repping KK TT or complete air, just a narrow % of hands you would make this play with. I honestly don't think the villan is going to be bluffing against you in this spot. You raised utg and in order for him to raise you on the flop he would almost always have a hand. I prefer bet/fold however being a drawheavy flop would make me like it less. If it was dryer then im def b/f. I'm just leading for about 28-32k on the flop and most likely folding if he raises

    Edit: tired and didnt notice where u said 19bbs...yea scratch what i said and just shove pre. Its close with 20bbs but at this stage with JJ u dont really wanna play postflop with ur stack so im shoving here pf
  4. saukendar saukendar is offline

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    Jan 12th, 2010 (1/12/2010 6:02pm) in reply to dreday227

    Your M=8.7 and with JJ UTG I'm shipping 100%.

    You followed the 2.5x small-ball thing to "open the caller's range" as they say. The button has the chips to play with you, suited broadway and he called getting almost 2:1. He made a good call. He's in position and with his M=16.5 he is looking to play pots. I understand the arguments for small-ball but from a pure math standpoint it gives zero protection to your hand once antes go on so don't be surprised when yellow or green zone Ms call you in position.

    When you have an orange zone M (5-10) you aren't really looking to play a pot any more, you are looking for spots to ship.

    my 2 cents
  5. saukendar saukendar is offline

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    Jan 12th, 2010 (1/12/2010 6:07pm) in reply to sct123

     
    Originally Posted by sct123 View Post

    C/r is about the worse...your polarizing ur range repping KK TT or complete air, just a narrow % of hands you would make this play with. I honestly don't think the villan is going to be bluffing against you in this spot. You raised utg and in order for him to raise you on the flop he would almost always have a hand. I prefer bet/fold however being a drawheavy flop would make me like it less. If it was dryer then im def b/f. I'm just leading for about 28-32k on the flop and most likely folding if he raises

    Bet fold leaves our hero either right at the bottom of orange zone or the top of red zone and we'll be in the blinds next hand and for sure red. We can't really afford a bet/fold here.

    We may end up in a race but ship pre is really our only line.

    another 2 cents
  6. sct123 sct123 is offline

    Fairfield, CT
    United States

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    Jan 12th, 2010 (1/12/2010 6:13pm) in reply to saukendar

    agreed once is saw the 19bbs in title lol...def shove here is prolly optimal just to avoid tough spots....jacks are kinda tricky postflop here and especially out of position u will be left with awkward stack sizes
  7. deckeriv deckeriv is offline

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    Joined: May 09

    Jan 12th, 2010 (1/12/2010 7:06pm) in reply to saukendar

     
    Originally Posted by saukendar View Post

    Your M=8.7 and with JJ UTG I'm shipping 100%.

    You followed the 2.5x small-ball thing to "open the caller's range" as they say. The button has the chips to play with you, suited broadway and he called getting almost 2:1. He made a good call. He's in position and with his M=16.5 he is looking to play pots. I understand the arguments for small-ball but from a pure math standpoint it gives zero protection to your hand once antes go on so don't be surprised when yellow or green zone Ms call you in position.

    When you have an orange zone M (5-10) you aren't really looking to play a pot any more, you are looking for spots to ship.

    my 2 cents

    Sau, You know I respect your views but isn't open shoving an M=8.7 going to miss too much value from hands like KQs? After all, we want that call. It's way better than just picking up the blinds. With the stack sizes behind, wouldn't we want 9's to shove thinking (obv bad thinking but droolers usually don't think) they might have some fold equity? What about if you just standard raise, and I might even argue a min raise here, then get two shoves behind just handing your stack over to someone with Kings? Shoving that big of a stack, and it's close of course as is all good problems to analyze, closes out hands that we might get value from, don't you think?
  8. saukendar saukendar is offline

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    Jan 12th, 2010 (1/12/2010 7:40pm) in reply to deckeriv

     
    Originally Posted by deckeriv View Post

    Sau, You know I respect your views but isn't open shoving an M=8.7 going to miss too much value from hands like KQs? After all, we want that call. It's way better than just picking up the blinds. With the stack sizes behind, wouldn't we want 9's to shove thinking (obv bad thinking but droolers usually don't think) they might have some fold equity? What about if you just standard raise, and I might even argue a min raise here, then get two shoves behind just handing your stack over to someone with Kings? Shoving that big of a stack, and it's close of course as is all good problems to analyze, closes out hands that we might get value from, don't you think?

    The problem with that is exaclty our stack size, we really can't aford to play a pot. Thats what we ran into here. Our stack is such that we can't bet/fold as going into the blinds after makes us red zone M. So our choices are check/fold or open shove on the flop. That's not bad if we're ready to fold any raise pre and any over card flop if we get a call and Stop N Go anything else. The check raise is bad, especialy on this board, because we have to offer the odds to draw. While giving up the 2.5x leaves us still in the orange, we hit the blinds next hand & we're red zone on the button, CO or hijack.

    The BBs only got 100K so we mostly have to call that shove anyway. The SBs a bit more of a judgment call. The real kicker is the two big stacks in LP. Either of them can, and in fact want to, call in position and play a pot knowing that we can't aford to play a pot.

    You aren't going loose value from KQs, you'll race or they'll fold - both fine answers.

    Most players don't stop to work out what the choice will be on the next street or streets. To help with that in short stack plays is what the M/colors are all about.

    Red: you're looking for luck - if antes are on they are killing you
    Orange: you're commited to any pot you play - looking to open shove/re-shove
    Yellow: You can see a flop but you'll in before the river if you continue
    Green: you get to play poker

    Always plan your play for the whole hand before you put chip 1 in the pot. Your poker life will be a lot eaiser.
  9. paulgibbo paulgibbo is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2010 (1/13/2010 2:54am) in reply to dreday227

    Great discussion about a situation that comes up ALL the time.

    IMO, JJ is a shove here - it is a bitch to play OOP among other things. AK is rather easier to play fit or fold with (I still think that is a shove).

    The guideline I've been told is:
    - will worse hands call? (I think so, one of the super big stacks or perhaps even the BB might call with a lower pair? Dunno.)
    - will better hands fold? (well no, but I'd very happen to increase my stack by 12% rather than race against KQ/ AK/ AQ - I suspect you will get action from the latter two no matter what...)

    Say 'the waiter raises' and you arrive back to play the hand on this flop.

    He shouldnt be set mining or playing suited-c's because your stack is too small - so we can put him on specific cards... with this stack size, a non-shove raise is often a monster - certainly raises an eyebrow.... so he has perhaps AQs/KQs - very specific hands...

    He may check behind with the first of those - and i may yet get to take this down if i have the 'stones'.

    So - I say check-fold, but I would really be proud if i did that at the table!!!!

    I had the same hand in a live tournament - exactly JJ, UTG, about the same M - i i decided against shoving - got one caller... flop Q43... from the same sized stack.

    If you think about it, LOTS of the hands he'd flat with have a Q in them. (AK raises, big pairs raise, medium pairs may call, but I'm not sure they should for playability reasons, SC and small pairs fold)

    I c-bet, he hesitated and called, and i shoved the turn and was eliminated thinking his little hesitation was AK - it was rather 'how do i get this guys money' - he did the right thing. F**** stupid.

    I was a donk. I think i can reliably check- and against this player fold to a bet.
     
  10. elb311 elb311 is offline

    Montgomeryville, PA
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    Jan 13th, 2010 (1/13/2010 10:44am) in reply to paulgibbo

    the right move was probably to shove preflop, but he didn't. when the flop hit and his opponent did bet i personally would have folded. like you said above. yes, you might have a smaller chip stack, but atleast you have chips left to make another move. on that flop....many more hands value better here then jj. the flop now has a both straight and flush draws. if the opponent had any of those, chances are he is gonna make that call.
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