Is anyone finding a fold here? I have no information on villain whatsoever, he just got to the table.

pokerstars Game #26952294845: Tournament #200904172, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVI (350/700) - 2009/04/10 20:12:09 ET
Table '200904172 109' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: FattyHamster (27640 in chips)
Seat 2: ATDizzle (21683 in chips)
Seat 3: crice25 (37081 in chips)
Seat 4: Donk Crusher (20670 in chips)
Seat 5: ne2canwin77 (43460 in chips)
Seat 6: FatalError (35869 in chips)
Seat 7: benben31 (14399 in chips)
Seat 8: mike14 (15852 in chips)
Seat 9: boca2004 (83315 in chips)
FattyHamster: posts the ante 85
ATDizzle: posts the ante 85
crice25: posts the ante 85
Donk Crusher: posts the ante 85
ne2canwin77: posts the ante 85
FatalError: posts the ante 85
benben31: posts the ante 85
mike14: posts the ante 85
boca2004: posts the ante 85
boca2004: posts small blind 350
FattyHamster: posts big blind 700
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ATDizzle [Kh Jh]
ATDizzle: raises 1198 to 1898
crice25: folds
Donk Crusher: folds
ne2canwin77: folds
FatalError: folds
benben31: folds
mike14: folds
boca2004: folds
FattyHamster: calls 1198
*** FLOP *** [6h 7h 9s]
FattyHamster: checks
ATDizzle: bets 3220
FattyHamster: raises 3780 to 7000
ATDizzle: ???????????????

 

Originally Posted by Frank1The1Tank

I think I check flop if I'm opening pre here with your stack. It's so tough to continue and you're probably not getting it in with great equity. That said, once you bet, think you have to get it in with 25% equity vs sets and Ax flush draws. Just pray he has a worse flush draw or just some sort of pair/straight combo like TT/88/87/98/T9 etc.

Sounds good enough...except for my own personal reference...why are we checking the flop? just cuz usually a pair isn't good here and all we got is a FD basically?

I don't mind checking behind, although I normally don't. I c-bet like 75% bc I was basically trying to force him to make a decision and get it in. I am just looking for some more thoughts on an optimal line.

First determine whether or not you want to go broke if need be. U have 2 overs+FD and this basically hits every hand he flats hard. It almost makes more sense to chk behind the flop and stack him more when u hit a flush, since he won't put you on it when u don't bet flop. Shoving over his turn lead is alright, but I'd wonder if you did same thing with AA? I'm guessing u'd only shove over turn to get him to fold 98 type hands (non 2pr/set hands). I don't really like going broke tho when I know the flop is coordinated and a pair might not likely be good. I'm almost liking a small ball approach on this hand.

 

Originally Posted by negativeROI

 

Originally Posted by bef99hwk

First determine whether or not you want to go broke if need be. U have 2 overs+FD and this basically hits every hand he flats hard. It almost makes more sense to chk behind the flop and stack him more when u hit a flush, since he won't put you on it when u don't bet flop. Shoving over his turn lead is alright, but I'd wonder if you did same thing with AA? I'm guessing u'd only shove over turn to get him to fold 98 type hands (non 2pr/set hands). I don't really like going broke tho when I know the flop is coordinated and a pair might not likely be good. I'm almost liking a small ball approach on this hand.

I 100% agree with you. I shoved (most aggressive line...not optimal) and he had 66 and made quads obv. But, if I check behind here...and the turn is a brick and he bets 50-70% of the pot...I think flatting is really the only option. He's not going to fold 2pair/set here ever and im gonna be getting it in with way less equity. Also, he'd have to assume I'd bet the flop with a FD. if I brick river and he bets again I'd still have over 20bbs.

Word...good hand to show/discuss...got my brain thinking...like ur line of thought on this.

 

Originally Posted by doubledave22

lead the flop smaller to make more room for a 4bet. U have alot of equity (at least some no matter what) vs his range and if u can induce a raise then reshove w/ alot of fold equity thats my fav way to play this type of spot <p> edit: this refers more to when ur oop, but w/e i still prob do it. If i check back i usually level myself into flatting his turn bet since i have alot less equity on the turn

Are you inferring that you dislike checking behind/flatting the turn (like I said earlier I wouldn't shove the turn regardless bc that makes absolutely no sense to me when ur equity has decreased tremendously). I just really hate getting it in here...and I always take that aggressive line but I know better. What line do you think is optimal..you said bet less...so lets say I c-bet like 2550..he makes it 6k...then ?

don't think i would bet small to induce a raise, just so we have a little more fold quity if he does raise, but anyways i think you should deft bet flop because there are a ton of worse draws that might get it in, and i'd fold pre usually.

 

Originally Posted by Bruno_Baller

don't think i would bet small to induce a raise, just so we have a little more fold quity if he does raise, but anyways i think you should deft bet flop because there are a ton of worse draws that might get it in, and i'd fold pre usually.

Folding pre is like throwing money away, I had a tight image so the discussion has nothing to do with preflop

 

Originally Posted by negativeROI

I hate my line here though...and it seems like most people just wanna get it in here (even with fold equity) which I dont entirely agree with (at the time thats what I wanted to do as well tho).

i mean how else are u gonna play it?

 

Originally Posted by Bruno_Baller

lol at folding pre is throwing money away and now u wanna check/call with k high flush draw and 2 overs with 30 big blinds.

Ya...I want to check call if I take the line of checking back on the flop... Makes absolutely no sense to shove the turn...he didn't bet the flop so I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. If you are folding KJs UTG with a tight image and 30bbs all day then you are a nit? I dunno whats so funny about that or how thats an arguable discussion?

Doubledave22- I think that I should have checked back flop, hes def betting the turn...flat there...and fold a blank river leaving myself 20+bbs...or getting it in if I hit. As I said before...if I check back the flop and and get there he's likely not going to put hearts in my range. (The reason I think this line is optimal is because I think he shows up with 2pair/set way too often and isn't going to fold). Of course I wouldn't mind seeing pair/draw combo bc I'd gladly get it in there all day...

 

Originally Posted by busto_soon

It depends on the defending range. If it's really tight (like it prob should be with a 30bb utg raiser) then I'd check flop and call a turn bet. If you suspect it's wider than that and he flats hands like AJ/AT/T9s/33 we should b/3b this flop.

Never played with this particular player and he had just got to the table...which makes this hand more difficult.

 

Originally Posted by negativeROI

 

Originally Posted by Bruno_Baller

lol at folding pre is throwing money away and now u wanna check/call with k high flush draw and 2 overs with 30 big blinds.

Ya...I want to check call if I take the line of checking back on the flop... Makes absolutely no sense to shove the turn...he didn't bet the flop so I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. If you are folding KJs UTG with a tight image and 30bbs all day then you are a nit? I dunno whats so funny about that or how thats an arguable discussion?

Doubledave22- I think that I should have checked back flop, hes def betting the turn...flat there...and fold a blank river leaving myself 20+bbs...or getting it in if I hit. As I said before...if I check back the flop and and get there he's likely not going to put hearts in my range. (The reason I think this line is optimal is because I think he shows up with 2pair/set way too often and isn't going to fold). Of course I wouldn't mind seeing pair/draw combo bc I'd gladly get it in there all day...

Shove turn? where did i say this? FWIW i don't like shoving the turn at all and i never said to shove the turn.

meh, i think doubledaves logic was alright betting a littler smaller than usual, either way though, i'd just bet and 3bet the flop regardless of what amount i decided to cbet too.

so there's 2 lines here in my opinion. With your stack, i don't mind checking behind and call a turn bet. The main reason for this is that it's not a good flop to cbet, this is the same reason we don't cbet this flop with ak, it's messy, if it hit his hand, it hit it hard. If we don't want to play for stacks, we don't cbet. Even if you had aa's, you're not too happy with this flop.

If we decided we're gonna play for stacks, then the best way is to make sure we get the last bet in. This is crucial to playing draws. One way is to cbet less, inducing a check raise, and shove over the top all-in.

So as played, you have to go over the top with the equity you have in the hand and the money you have alerady put in, the problem is you don't seem to have too much fold equity. This is why we need to manipulate the bet sizing in the first place.

So bottom line, dont' cbet if u not willing to go over the top cause it's a bad flop to cbet to hope for a fold and you don't want to be check raised out of seeing the turn and river.

What I got from this thread is that when he checks to u on this flop, u have to decide whether ur willing to play for stacks, and if u r, cbet and shove over cr, but if u arent take the pot control line and check back and call if he bets turn or put a delyd cbet out. I actually think I like checking because it disguises the hand stregnth and if he checks the turn u can still make a bet, tho it might be a little less effective...