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KK cash game

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  1. XMCWSterling XMCWSterling is offline

    Grundy, VA
    United States

    Posts: 4
    Joined: Oct 07

    Jan 18th, 2009 (1/18/2009 4:47am)

    1-2 NL

    UTG ($200)raises to $15, i ($150) re-raise to $45 in mid position. table folds around to UTG who calls. Flop comes AA7 rainbow. UTG checks, I check as well. turn card is Q. UTG bets 45, I call. The river comes a 4. UTG bets 60, i fold. UTG show pocket Q's. Question is, should i have bet the flop. Looking back, i don't think he calls 30 more with AK pre flop, but would he fold to a bet on the flop?
  2. gguk2008 gguk2008 is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 1,021
    Joined: May 08

    Jan 18th, 2009 (1/18/2009 5:39am) in reply to XMCWSterling

    He wouldn't fold to a bet on the flop, but I think he would commit which would put this under bad beats.

    I think that's a pretty good flop for your hand. Sure, he could have an Ace, but with two on board I'm liking your chances.

    You put yourself in a bad position on the Turn when you both checked the flop. I see why you did it, but you know nothing more about his hand. Also, your stack is pretty awkward for any post-flop play. The pot is now around $90 and you have $100 in your stack. I think I ship it in and pray he hasn't got AK/AQ/AJ/AT.

    Reads are important. From the size of the raise preflop, I'm guessing this is live? I may be wrong. Was there nothing you could tell from his demeanour?

    Also, why did you flat-call his Turn bet with very little left for you to play with (you now have 2/3 of your stack in), and why did you fold the River with nothing scary out there if you only called the Turn?
  3. XMCWSterling XMCWSterling is offline

    Grundy, VA
    United States

    Posts: 4
    Joined: Oct 07

    Jan 18th, 2009 (1/18/2009 4:51pm) in reply to gguk2008

    I hated my call on the turn after i did it. the real concern with me was that he had shown down Kings and Jacks in the previous few pots he was involved in so when he called my preflop raise i was sure that he had a very strong hand. The two aces on the flop made AK less likely, but i when he called i put him on QQ, and when the Q came on the turn i wanted to puke, but i donkey called. by the river i knew i was beat. i eventually made the money back only to lose it all on a four outer on the river, but that's a different thread.

    PS it was a live game
    Thread Starter
  4. saukendar saukendar is offline

    United States

    Posts: 1,235
    Joined: Mar 07

    Jan 19th, 2009 (1/19/2009 5:50pm) in reply to XMCWSterling

    As you are going to call a turn bet anyway bet out another $45 on this flop most of the time. If he comes back to you, you can give him an A and fold - no different than what you got. With this bet you'll look like AK trying to get value off a smaller A. If you check behind he'll bet out the turn most of the time representing an A that was trying to induce a c-bet - as you found out you then have the question of "now what?"

    my 2 cents
  5. pkalevar pkalevar is offline

    Posts: 343
    Joined: Jul 06

    Jan 20th, 2009 (1/20/2009 1:19pm) in reply to XMCWSterling

    i diasgree, any ace 3 betting preflop checks this flop 95% of the time IMO. so betting the flop screams i don't have an ace, so he calls your bet on the flop thinking his QQ is good and then your frozen. If he decides to bet again even without hitting his queen the pot is his.

    you checking at least allows weaker hands to either make something or think they are good. its just unfortunate that his QQ filled up to trump your KK.

    UL well played.
  6. saukendar saukendar is offline

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    Jan 21st, 2009 (1/21/2009 1:10pm) in reply to pkalevar

     
    Originally Posted by pkalevar View Post

    i diasgree, any ace 3 betting preflop checks this flop 95% of the time IMO. so betting the flop screams i don't have an ace, so he calls your bet on the flop thinking his QQ is good and then your frozen. If he decides to bet again even without hitting his queen the pot is his.

    you checking at least allows weaker hands to either make something or think they are good. its just unfortunate that his QQ filled up to trump your KK.

    UL well played.

    It true an A OOP will check here but we have position - he checked & thats what an A would do - when he bets out on the turn we really should be folding if we check behind the flop.

    I still say bet in this spot - he opened and called a raise pre then checked to us on the flop. We have bet out to see if he has the A. If he does he comes back to us 95% now that we are 2/3s in no different than what we got. :) We really have to find out if he has an A - the preflop bet was 45 so go another 45 on the flop.

    If we check behind here he'll be betting between 1/2 and full pot on the turn like 95% with whatever he has and now what? He is claiming he has an A & he did call a re-raise pre - AK is a real possibibility and would have been looking to check raise the flop - we kind of have to fold now and thats sick with Ks.

    another 2 cents

    [edit]
    Lets say the villian had JJ/TT instead of QQ, if we check the flop he will feel they are good. He will still bet the turn & river and we still have to fold somewhere along the line.
  7. pkalevar pkalevar is offline

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    Jan 22nd, 2009 (1/22/2009 7:37am) in reply to saukendar

     
    Originally Posted by saukendar View Post

     
    Originally Posted by pkalevar View Post


    i diasgree, any ace 3 betting preflop checks this flop 95% of the time IMO. so betting the flop screams i don't have an ace, so he calls your bet on the flop thinking his QQ is good and then your frozen. If he decides to bet again even without hitting his queen the pot is his.

    you checking at least allows weaker hands to either make something or think they are good. its just unfortunate that his QQ filled up to trump your KK.

    UL well played.

    It true an A OOP will check here but we have position - he checked & thats what an A would do - when he bets out on the turn we really should be folding if we check behind the flop.

    I still say bet in this spot - he opened and called a raise pre then checked to us on the flop. We have bet out to see if he has the A. If he does he comes back to us 95% now that we are 2/3s in no different than what we got. :) We really have to find out if he has an A - the preflop bet was 45 so go another 45 on the flop.

    If we check behind here he'll be betting between 1/2 and full pot on the turn like 95% with whatever he has and now what? He is claiming he has an A & he did call a re-raise pre - AK is a real possibibility and would have been looking to check raise the flop - we kind of have to fold now and thats sick with Ks.

    another 2 cents

    [edit]
    Lets say the villian had JJ/TT instead of QQ, if we check the flop he will feel they are good. He will still bet the turn & river and we still have to fold somewhere along the line.

    without an ace or better there is no way anyone bets river in my opinion.

    with JJ or 1010 there is no way he bets at all when the queen comes up on the turn. however say he stumbled into this hand with KQs, QJs then your definitely getting value for your kings by checking the flop. If the queen had not come, kings would have got paid by a bet on the turn and river in all likelihood.

    On the flop, any decent bet and the queens may fold, and they will definitely fold on the turn and river. with following bets if he doesn't hit his queen.

    Betting the flop turns that flop bet into pretty much a bluff.

    If he checked representing the ace, then when you bet hes either going to continue representing the ace (whether he has it or not) either check raising or calling then betting turn and/or river or just fold.

    and KK is far from a bluff so if he folds it means he has a hand you probably could have got a lot more value out of had you checked. and there is plenty of value to extract from KK on a dry flop like this, you shouldn't be too worried about two outers if you think you can get more value by checking the flop.

    However, obviously play is read dependent, and if you have good reads on eachother, your play should obviously consider those and your optimal play may very well change to betting the flop, but thats another story...

    once again i think it is unlucky and well played. i've seen many of your posts sauk and disagree with you often but don't bother to reply. however im no pro so maybe im wrong.
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