Do you often find yourself contemplating folding middle-set on a rainbow/disconnected flop?

Only one hand has you beat. Even if your opponent is playing like he has a monster, there are more monsters you beat than beat you.

Letting go of KK preflop would require an incredible read on your opponent -- something I don't think you can really do without seeing them physically, unless their betting patterns are so ridiculously transparent that you can pick out AA from QQ, AK, JJ, etc. (not usually the case).

Don't play strong hands weakly because you're having bad luck recently. That's called "tilt."

stars? Right?

I agree, you should not fold pre-flop in most any situation. I have been having the same luck, but mostly post-flop when an Ace appears...almost every time I get KK, an Ace hits the flop. But, here's the kicker, only half the time have I been up against another ace and very dependent on reads or continuation bets to get info.

I think the key is playing post-flop and listening to your reads that tell you you're beat. I feel your game has elevated to a much higher level when you can correctly lay down pkt. K's when you know you are beat. I'm almost there and have been right on lately, even when I do not lay them down that little voice inside said I was beat...now I just gotta be able to listen and act accordingly.

Take in all the info, trust your instincts, and be willing to let go once in a while.

<SPAN class=388250516-12072006>Was orginally responding to Games_Geek, ended up a long ramble. (sorry, sitting at work with nothing better to do)</SPAN>

<SPAN class=388250516-12072006>Cabo: Yes stars. I'm actually FaTaL_22, have we played together? </SPAN>

<SPAN class=388250516-12072006>Boozhwaa: I think your right, hence my mention of not playing so fast pre-flop to see if an ace does land, but there's still no defense against AA-- or at least I'm trying to find it if there is. </SPAN>

<SPAN class=388250516-12072006>Far as I can tell, noone seems to think folding KK pre-flop is the correct thing to do under any circumstances, which is exactly how I feel as I've said, but I'm just starting to wonder if *maybe* the correct thing to do may be to fold given particular circumstances (ie. on the money bubble). </SPAN>

Nope, I don't fold ANY set on a disconnected rainbow flop. I don't have a lack of aggression, in fact, the whole point to my post was that perhaps I may be TO aggressive, that's what I'm trying to figure out. I think there are unique circumstances in tournament play that playing a monster hand is NOT the correct thing to do, a hand like KK perhaps, I just don't have the discipline to fold it and I'm wondering if anyone else does. (the hands you expect to be called with AA,AK,AQ are certainly capable of beating KK) I had KK pre-flop one time in a big live tournament, 36 players left, paid 34 and me and another guy at my table had a HUGE chip lead over the rest of the field. (between us, we had about 90% of the chiops in play) I had put in 11 straight hours of perfect poker to accumulate that lead, and crazy maniac had been playing stupid and took out 4 players in one hand to nearly catch up with me in chips. He gets seated next to me, and begins going all in nearly every hand with trash, getting called, and sucking out and so it goes. I immediately go into fold mode and decide I cannot call with anything less than AA or KK because he is the only player in the TOURNAMENT that can hurt me. Well strange thing happened that I happen to see his hand when he picked his cards up off the table to look at them, he had AJ unsuited. (a PREMIUM hand for this guy, so I know he's going all-in). Alas, I look down and find KK. Just as expected, he goes all-in, everyone folds to me. My general philosophy is "I cannot win the tournament in day 1 but I can certainly lose it". This was a 2-day event, and we we're 30 minutes away from calling it a day. Well as it were, I was thinking "I CAN WIN THIS TOURNAMENT RIGHT HERE" because if I call and win, I'd have about 90% of the chips in play. So I call, he turns an ace, and that pretty much cripples me, and I finish 36th place out of the money. So I go from chip leader, to next out, because i wouldn't fold that KK. I have absolutely no doubt I could have taken that guy easily heads up (assuming he even made it that far, though he did go on to win) because he was a very lucky and weak player. That single hand cost me $30,000 real money (which is allot to me). I often regret playing that KK, because while I knew I had him dominated, it simply wasn't worth the risk at that time because he is the only player in the tournament I don't wanna lock horns with because he can send me home. If I had folded, I would have most certainly made the final table, and probably still would have won. I wish I had just folded the hand, and went home. As it were, I still find myself unable to fold KK even having experienced that first hand. I know you don't care, but I'm just pointing out a situation I actually went through that I think the correct play might have been to fold.

The fact is, more often than not, I suspect my opponent DOES have AA, because there is no other hand I can put him on, and yet I STILL call/move in. I am well aware of the fact they could have QQ or AK etc. I'm just trying to figure out if my move-in 100% of the time pre-flop strategy is the best way to go-- According to you, I guess you agree that it is....?

Let me set the stage on a hand I played just yesterday, tell me what you would have done:

$35 2-table 6-handed S&G. Pays 1st-3rd.

I'm sitting 2nd in chips with 4 players left with about $5,500. Chip leader to my right with $6,000, another guy with around $3,000, and a short-stacked player with about $1,200.

I pick up KK on the button, chip leader (CL) makes it 800 to go pre-flop. I re-raise make it 1,800 to go, CL goes all-in. Now I'm playing a 4-handed game, the odds of AA and KK both being out are astronomical, but I felt that guy would ONLY make that play with AA because he and I had been avoiding each other waiting on the short stack to go out to establish a money finish. Well I think he has AA, and I'm even telling myself he has AA, and I still make the call. He of course has AA, I go out in 4th place with no money, and I could have folded the KK and been guaranteed a money finish, and probably still would have won because I felt like I had control of that table. Against any other player at the table, it's an OBVIOUS call, but against the one guy who can put me on the rail, I'm starting to question my KK 100% of the time philosophy.

<SPAN class=388250516-12072006>If anyone managed to read throgh all that rambling, would you have called the manaic with AJ with KK in that situation? I've come to the conclusion I should have folded, despite the fact I was a huge favorite. It was the biggest hand of my life, I went for it, and lost, and I know that influcences my opinion now, but I just wonder what I'll do if faced with another similar descion later. I think the gauranteed cash *may* be objective #1. THEN go for the win....at least that's what I'm leaning towards right now given that my "just short" finishes are starting to number more than I can count when I should be making money on them. </SPAN>

How is it not even close? Holding KK preflop there's four disctinct hands that have you beat: aa aa aa aa.

Holding second set on a rainbow/disconnected board, there's four distinct hands that have you beat.

I realize the particular differences between the situations as it was a loose analogy, but I wouldn't say it's "not even close" to the same thing.

Sweet.

According to my calculations* these are the odds of any two random hands resulting in the following.
AA v KK: 1 in 45,248
middle set v top set on flop: 1 in 142,857

For a variety of reasons, this is a completely useless stat but because I took the time to calculate it, I posted it.

*I am not a mathematician and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Regarding tourneys, I will agree without doubt that i'm betting all my money with KK...most of the time. However, there are situational factors that can allow you to fold the hand. One most importantly is stack size, as this is the most crucial element to making your way into the money. If you are average stack holding KK and CL puts you all in. Even if you are almost certain that he doesn't have AA, he most likey has Ax which puts you at 30% to bust.

You can't win the tournament with the hand you can only double up (which would be nice) or get unlucky and bust (suck).
its only a small mistake to fold and lose a few chips versus calling and losing all your chips.
If you fold, there will be other opportunities to get some chips, remember its about surviving the longest.

I'm NOT saying that I fold KK often, if ever, but I'm saying that there is an argument to folding. Only, if you are a good player and have a decent chips:blinds its ok to release KK and wait for other postflop opportunities.

Did anyone catch HIGH STAKES POKER on Monday nights, season 1 when Farha and Greeensten both went all in pre flop. Farha with KK, Greenstein with AA. was the last hand of the night and it was around $100-150K pot. they had a race to the river and Farha gets a K for a set.

I thought that was amazing.

I saw it. Farha thought he might be beat, but stuck his money in anyway.

I have never folded kings preflop, but under the right conditions i might. I would only consider it if the 2 of us were very deepstacked, and I knew the other player to be very tight/conservative.

I've folded KK twice preflop - both times in cash games and both times i was right - my opponents were holding AA.