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kq utg shove or fold? (turbo)

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  1. theairplane theairplane is offline

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    Aug 13th, 2012 (8/13/2012 8:09pm)

    I dont love shoving here with 17bb but kq plays well against some calling hands and nash says its profitable...plus table was plain tight...thoughts?

    pokerstars Hand #84675389819: Tournament #598693349, $40+$10+$4 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (500/1000) - 2012/08/13 14:26:09 ET
    Table '598693349 5' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 1: Alex21reg (16175 in chips)
    Seat 2: camikater (31357 in chips)
    Seat 3: gregt18 (14793 in chips)
    Seat 4: klimov1801 (22735 in chips)
    Seat 5: saskMike (15004 in chips)
    Seat 6: basil86 (17804 in chips)
    Seat 7: spitznspots (10647 in chips)
    Seat 8: Anscom (20776 in chips)
    Seat 9: BackdoorNutz (9891 in chips)
    Alex21reg: posts the ante 125
    camikater: posts the ante 125
    gregt18: posts the ante 125
    klimov1801: posts the ante 125
    saskMike: posts the ante 125
    basil86: posts the ante 125
    spitznspots: posts the ante 125
    Anscom: posts the ante 125
    BackdoorNutz: posts the ante 125
    klimov1801: posts small blind 500
    saskMike: posts big blind 1000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to basil86 [Kh Qs]
    basil86:??
  2. WWF2012 WWF2012 is offline

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    Aug 13th, 2012 (8/13/2012 8:14pm) in reply to theairplane

    shoving this is pretty bad imo. 17bbs utg is plenty to work with. I would just fold and move onto the next hand
  3. blueboy44 blueboy44 is offline

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    Aug 13th, 2012 (8/13/2012 8:25pm) in reply to WWF2012

    No way would i shove there. too many better spots to shove than that. U said the table has been tight so if u do shove there w/ KQ ur only gettin called by better hands. The risk reward is not worth the shove. Imo
  4. boneralert boneralert is offline

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    Aug 13th, 2012 (8/13/2012 9:13pm) in reply to blueboy44

    If the table has been playing pretty tight, why not just raise/fold? You are going to look pretty strong raising UTG with 18 BBs and shouldn't get played back at very often, as 3b/fold won't really be an option. It's kind of ugly to r/f an 18 BB stack, especially when 18 BB puts you in pretty good shape relative to the rest of the field, but it's an option at least. Open folding would be fine too. I think a shove is a little loose.
     
  5. theairplane theairplane is offline

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    Aug 13th, 2012 (8/13/2012 9:20pm) in reply to boneralert

     
    Originally Posted by boneralert View Post

    If the table has been playing pretty tight, why not just raise/fold? You are going to look pretty strong raising UTG with 18 BBs and shouldn't get played back at very often, as 3b/fold won't really be an option. It's kind of ugly to r/f an 18 BB stack, especially when 18 BB puts you in pretty good shape relative to the rest of the field, but it's an option at least. Open folding would be fine too. I think a shove is a little loose.

    I'm still petty sure its a shove
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  6. boneralert boneralert is offline

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    Aug 13th, 2012 (8/13/2012 9:33pm) in reply to theairplane

    Well okay. I don't think a shove is the worst thing, but I'd prefer a fold. It will somewhat depend on how the table is playing and what I think I can get away with in future hands. If the table is playing tight then yes, this will get through a little more frequently. But it also means you should have good opportunities to steal blinds from later positions, in future hands.
     
  7. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

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    Aug 14th, 2012 (8/14/2012 12:09am) in reply to Macho2701

    Pretty sure it's a nash fold. And I'm also pretty sure KQo plays pretty poorly against everyone's calling range.

    edit: ICM Nash Calculator Results

    Personally, I still think that's a bit too wide since some of those shoves are barely above breakeven and I don't see a need to take barely breakeven shoves in a turbo when other people tend to make a lot of mistakes.
    Edited By: tyson219 Aug 14th, 2012 at 12:12 AM
      1
  8. theairplane theairplane is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2012 (8/14/2012 1:06am) in reply to tyson219

     
    Originally Posted by tyson219 View Post

    Pretty sure it's a nash fold. And I'm also pretty sure KQo plays pretty poorly against everyone's calling range.

    edit: ICM Nash Calculator Results

    Personally, I still think that's a bit too wide since some of those shoves are barely above breakeven and I don't see a need to take barely breakeven shoves in a turbo when other people tend to make a lot of mistakes.


    Tyson i was using a push fold chart, obv i don't follow it to the letter but i guess even so i still got this shove wrong (funny because a few months back i would have instafolded).
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  9. blueboy44 blueboy44 is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2012 (8/14/2012 1:45am) in reply to theairplane

    what shove chart do you use? mine says at hj+4 to shove KQs,KQo w/ an M of 10. ur M was 11 could argue 12, but that is at the very bottom of the shove chart so i would stay away from the very bottom of the shove chart in spots where ur M is higher than 10 and your hj+4. as ur M gets lower i would consider using the bottom of my chart, but i would use some logic also. ex: mine says w/ an M of 8 in the hj+4 to shove w/ QJs but that is the very bottom. only a very small % of the time would i shove that. the spot u posted doesn't fit for me.
  10. ManchVegasPwn ManchVegasPwn is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2012 (8/14/2012 11:06am) in reply to blueboy44

    This, to me seems like an obvious fold, and idk about any type of chart that would say jamming 18bb utg with KQ in full ring to be profitable. If your table in general is playing tight, you can find much better spots jamming in late position where you don't have to fade so many calling ranges. Go thru the blinds imo, if you don't have a resteal spot there, or limpers to shove over, u can blind down to like 12-13 bigs and jam a suited king or something in LP and rarely be too big of a dog when called. Your shoves will get thru so much more often and your hand will play better vs calling range instead of shoving KQo for 18 bigs, you'll be crushed when called unless they find TT or JJ.

    That said, I am probably jamming 12.5-13bb utg with KQo depending on stack sizes behind me (player's stack size in the BB) if blinds are going up soon, and other player dependent factors can make it a shove, but it is still a marginal spot, which is why it's a lot more fun to try and always have 40+ bigs
    Edited By: ManchVegasPwn Aug 14th, 2012 at 11:09 AM
     1
  11. theairplane theairplane is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2012 (8/14/2012 3:55pm) in reply to ManchVegasPwn

    which is why it's a lot more fun to try and always have 40+ bigs[/QUOTE]


    You must be really good if you always have 40 bigs in turbo...
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  12. collincapone collincapone is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2012 (8/14/2012 6:05pm) in reply to theairplane

    Too deep to jam so min raise fold but call once in awhile if it's a bunch of regs who will jam kjss or 10 9ss vs you if they think you are capable of raise folding.
    Edited By: collincapone Aug 14th, 2012 at 06:06 PM
     
  13. WWF2012 WWF2012 is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2012 (8/14/2012 6:55pm) in reply to collincapone

    this advice sucks. raise/folding and raise/calling are both so horrendous
    (in reply to collincapone btw)
    Edited By: WWF2012 Aug 14th, 2012 at 06:56 PM
  14. collincapone collincapone is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2012 (8/14/2012 8:15pm) in reply to WWF2012

    You're at a tight table and going to get a ton of walks. If you have to fold you are left with 15 bb compared to a 17 bb stack had you folded. It's not going to change much. The pots that you pick up will be more often than you fold. As for raise calling this is more villian specific but should be done once in awhile so they don't try to abuse you.
     
  15. kevmode kevmode is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2012 (8/14/2012 8:40pm) in reply to collincapone

    I am def open folding this right away op. I don't like raise folding here and shoving is bad also. Op you are going to find a better spot to get your chips in.
     
  16. cracker9ball cracker9ball is offline

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    Aug 15th, 2012 (8/15/2012 12:58am) in reply to kevmode

    I just fold and find a much better spot in pos. TT+ ATs+ A5s AJo+ KTs+ KQo QJs is the suggested shove range that I show but in instances like this where all the stacks are similar or even smaller I try to avoid the bottom of the range, especially in HJ+4, HJ+3, HJ+2. This seems like an easy hand to fold and wait for a better spot. GL
     
  17. collincapone collincapone is offline

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    Aug 15th, 2012 (8/15/2012 1:58am) in reply to cracker9ball

    To the guys folding this hand, what's your range required to shove over an utg min open if folded to you in late position with a similar stack?
    Edited By: collincapone Aug 15th, 2012 at 02:00 AM
     
  18. BobCynical BobCynical is offline

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    Aug 15th, 2012 (8/15/2012 7:54pm) in reply to collincapone

    If the tables as tight as you say, then opening is never as bad as people are making out. Id fold as there are too many perfect reship stacks to deal with. But this looks like a KO mtt, and even late, that should serve to keep the shorter stacks a little more honest than normal, so raise/fold becomes more of a realistic possibility imo. Plus turbos are not times when one should be waiting for ideal spots. 17x is obv not a stack you want to be raise/folding with, but that said i believe viewing 17x as a 'one spot' stack to be incorrect. Just my 2 cents.
  19. collincapone collincapone is offline

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    Aug 15th, 2012 (8/15/2012 9:21pm) in reply to BobCynical

    Anything past 15 bbs in a turbo is deep imo.
     
  20. RhoNin RhoNin is offline

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    Aug 16th, 2012 (8/16/2012 2:50am) in reply to collincapone

    i just fold AJ/KQ in this spot, on to the next one
     
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