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Late MTT Thought Process for Calling All in

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  1. Heads Up Abe Heads Up Abe is offline

    Gilbert, AZ
    United States

    Posts: 437
    Joined: Oct 05

    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 8:23am)

    18 players left out of 323. Chip leaders have 70K. I am in last place when this hand comes up.

    Hand #37920655-246 at Thu815pmA-006 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
    Started at 21/Dec/06 23:25:50

    MrBlunt2You is at seat 0 with 24725.
    Lance2005 is at seat 1 with 23445.
    edwardj251 is at seat 2 with 58135.
    IZheetMDrurz is at seat 3 with 23775.
    gameshooter is at seat 4 with 10715.
    Heads Up Abe is at seat 5 with 9940.
    del Plumage is at seat 7 with 27470.
    jamminjimmyt is at seat 8 with 15200.
    1heelsfan is at seat 9 with 31325.
    The button is at seat 0.

    MrBlunt2You posts ante (150).
    Lance2005 posts ante (150).
    edwardj251 posts ante (150).
    IZheetMDrurz posts ante (150).
    gameshooter posts ante (150).
    Heads Up Abe posts ante (150).
    del Plumage posts ante (150).
    jamminjimmyt posts ante (150).
    1heelsfan posts ante (150).
    Lance2005 posts the small blind of 800.
    edwardj251 posts the big blind of 1600.

    MrBlunt2You: -- --
    Lance2005: -- --
    edwardj251: -- --
    IZheetMDrurz: -- --
    gameshooter: -- --
    Heads Up Abe: Xy Xy
    del Plumage: -- --
    jamminjimmyt: -- --
    1heelsfan: -- --

    Pre-flop:

    IZheetMDrurz goes all-in for 23625. gameshooter goes
    all-in for 10565.

    1. What is the list of things you ask yourself before calling or folding here?
    2. What is the minimum hand you need to be holding to make the call?

    Thanks.
  2. SerlinSteak19 SerlinSteak19 is offline

    Brooklyn, NY
    United States

    Posts: 3,566
    Joined: Apr 06

    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 8:42am) in reply to Heads Up Abe

    Aces with possibly kings depending on their image. Even though you're the short stack one double up gets you right back into it so theres no need to dodge tons of cards with pocket queens and under. I can't see you calling 2 all ins with anything less.
  3. dd dd is offline

    Monroe, LA
    United States

    Posts: 1,596
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    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 9:32am) in reply to SerlinSteak19

    Oops saw the 2nd ai.

    You need AA or KK to call here. Otherwise find a better spot.

    And possibly 6 4 sooted lol.
  4. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

    Rosemount, MN
    United States

    Posts: 7,980
    Joined: Jun 05

    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 9:39am) in reply to Heads Up Abe

    Serlin, if you're that tight, I just can't imagine you go deep in a lot of tournaments. Maybe you do. I don't know.

    Questions I'd ask:

    - Are we on a money bubble? In this case, with 18 left, probably not, but if I can get a little bit extra if gameshooter goes out, I'm tightening up.
    - How tight/loose has the pusher been? What hands have they shown with standard raises? What hands (if any) have they shown with pushes and/or bigger raises?
    - How tight/loose is the caller? Does he seem desperate?
    - Does he "seem" capable of stealing blinds with any two, or is he A-B-C enough that he's got SOMETHING?

    Against what I would classify as an aggressive raiser and a normal caller, as the short stack, I'm making this call with 99+, AK, AQs. It's time to gamble here. With 10-18 normally paying out the same, I don't see a whole lot of value of only making the call with a monster. Hanging on for another orbit or two as a super-short stack doesn't help me make any more money.
     
  5. rock_well28 rock_well28 is offline

    Cold Lake
    Canada

    Posts: 202
    Joined: Jul 06

    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 9:49am) in reply to grapsfan

    grapes, i enjoy your posts and respect your opinion but... it looks like hes got an M of 2, the way i figure the best chance to make any money or have a shot at any is to go all in before the blinds hit you. you only got a couple of hands left, i see you calling a push with any ace. as grapes put it its time to gamble, you dont have much options and even a low pair is good for me.
  6. Heads Up Abe Heads Up Abe is offline

    Gilbert, AZ
    United States

    Posts: 437
    Joined: Oct 05

    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 9:51am) in reply to grapsfan

    Thanks for the replies so far. More info:

    1. There is a money difference between 18th and 17th, but it's insignificant.
    2. The pusher has pushed several hands in the past two rounds w/o showdown, clearly playing his low M (or had real hands but we'll never know).
    3. I've only been at the table for 3 rounds, so I do not have any deep reads.
    4. I know very little about the caller except he's as short as I am.
    5. The pusher probably has some kind of hand, not "any two" but clearly doesn't have to have a big hand either.
    Thread Starter
  7. BennyProfane BennyProfane is offline

    Chicago, IL
    United States

    Posts: 250
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    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 10:01am) in reply to Heads Up Abe

    I'd call with AA or KK and mayyyyyyybe AKs if you think the pusher/caller are loose, depending on their table image. If you're at 18 remaining though, it's possible that you or they have just been moved and you don't have a read on either of them, in which case I would fold AKs. You have three more hands before your BB and may find a better hand to push before you post that BB, so I would throw away anything other than AA or KK and see if you find a better hand to get some fold equity in the next 3 hands before your stack goes down to around 7k. The list of things I would ask myself are things I would prob. try to have figured out before this hand comes up, I think my decision would be pretty automatic unless I had a real read on the players involved, particularly the second player.
  8. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

    Rosemount, MN
    United States

    Posts: 7,980
    Joined: Jun 05

    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 10:03am) in reply to rock_well28

    If I was to err, I'd err in your direction, Rock. If you put a gun to my head and said, "you either call with any two that you think might be live, or you wait for AA/KK", I'm calling with any two.

    Rock, did you notice the other short-stack who called before the action got to us? That's why I didn't say "any ace". I think there's a very realistic scenario where the caller figured the initial pusher moves with any two, so something like A7 is good. I'm not a huge fan of calling when I'm pretty sure I'm dominated.

    That's not to say I'd call with any two. I'm still comfortable with the range I gave. I might lower the pairs range down to any pair, especially if it's 22. 22 is the shit. Ari taught me that.
     
  9. Neek Neek is offline

    Boca Raton, FL
    United States

    Posts: 2,216
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    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 10:06am) in reply to Heads Up Abe

    If there is 18 left then you have to understand that you need to make the final table in order to increase your payday. That means you have to multiply your stack multiple times. You have a lot of work to do. Remember if you bust out 18th or 10th, same payday (if on stars).

    List of things:
    1. What is my M. You are at about 7xBB here, and you can fold some marginal hands, but IMO not many. If I'm at 5xBB I will call here with a wide range...any pair, any broadway, suited connectors with the chance to triple. I posted a similar thread about being in the BB with 5xBB, when UTG shoved (he was only at 7xBB and blinds coming through gave him a huge range), then the SB (a big stack raised my puny stack to isolate--which to me meant he wasn't that strong, because why would he care about pushing out my tiny stack with QQ, AA or KK). I sat with QJ and almost instacalled. A chance to triple with two people that have pretty wide ranges was just too much to fold to. I lose and I go to bed. Would I rather be shoving with QJ? Of course, but remember you need to climb over half the tourney to get any increased payday.

    2. What are the stack sizes of the other players involved. The initial shover had a decent stack and certainly didn't NEED to shove with marginal stuff, so you probably have to give him credit for a hand. The all-in caller is almost as desperate as you, so he can have a pretty wide range. Probably a mid pair or something and he's willing to race with what looks like AK.

    3. How much more time before the blinds go up and you lose fold equity anyway? If you have some time than that can tighten the range you need to call here.

    What hands? With stacks sizes as they are:

    Probably 66+, AK? (If really think the initial raiser has AK and I'm unhappy about Ax here, but I probably call with AJ+)

    course 4-6 suited and 7-9 suited as well, obv.

    Maybe K-J off if I'm feeling Phillmaffian
     
  10. ssydd ssydd is offline

    Easthampton, MA
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    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 10:09am) in reply to Heads Up Abe

    It seems to me that neither of these players needs to be very strong to make their plays at this stage in the tourney so my range would be J's thru A's, AK and AQ possibly adding tens or AJ depending if ur read suggested they would both make these plays with very light holding. Obviously you need to make a move soon but I would rather shove first in with 45s on the next hand then call against 2 players with a weak ace or medium to small pair. Tossing AK or queens as some have suggested is just too tight here in my opinion and given ur stack size and their (I'm assuming) wide ranges I think J's and AQ must call too.
  11. POKER_PANDA POKER_PANDA is offline

    Tahoe City, CA
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    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 10:19am) in reply to ssydd

    With an M of 2.5 I don't see how you fold AJ+, and 99+. I think I could fold a2-a9 (a10 is close), and wait to be the first one in the pot with even a lesser hand.
  12. koolkat koolkat is offline

    Jamestown, TN
    United States

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    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 10:38am) in reply to Heads Up Abe

    graps 99+, AQs+ IMO
  13. LesW LesW is offline

    Boston, MA
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    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 11:06am) in reply to koolkat

    time to gamble 77+ ATs+
  14. Kenny Rap Kenny Rap is offline

    Absecon, NJ
    United States

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    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 12:21pm) in reply to LesW

    Neek's post better have been a joke
     
  15. Neek Neek is offline

    Boca Raton, FL
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    Dec 22nd, 2006 (12/22/2006 12:32pm) in reply to Kenny Rap

    Some of it.

    Or do you agree with the first reply that you need AA or KK to call?
     
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