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laying down KK preflop?????

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  1. JamesGordon00 JamesGordon00 is offline

    Lexington, KY
    United States

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    Joined: Dec 07

    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 7:37pm)

    Full Tilt Poker Game #10576041242: $40,000 Guarantee (79676588), Table 58 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:27:03 ET - 2009/02/11
    Seat 1: JoePal (3,940)
    Seat 2: yedam (2,950)
    Seat 3: SimpleVr6 (2,410)
    Seat 4: Therocker0 (11,588)
    Seat 5: teamfranklin2k5 (7,250)
    Seat 6: suckoutonu (1,195)
    Seat 7: terpkeg (7,425)
    Seat 8: Hasnen (7,278)
    Seat 9: DudeMang (7,130)
    Therocker0 posts the small blind of 50
    teamfranklin2k5 posts the big blind of 100
    The button is in seat #3
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Therocker0 [Ks Kd]
    suckoutonu folds
    terpkeg folds
    Hasnen folds
    DudeMang folds
    JoePal raises to 300
    yedam folds
    SimpleVr6 folds
    Therocker0 raises to 1,000
    teamfranklin2k5 raises to 1,800
    JoePal folds
    therocker0.....???

    Fold call or shove?????

    teamfranklin has 70BB, what could he be 4 betting here with?? And is it worth risking 3/4ths of my stack this early in the tournament with such a good stack???
  2. sketchy1 sketchy1 is offline Dangerzone

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 7:57pm) in reply to JamesGordon00

    ez call
      

    sketchy1 is an instructor at PocketFives Training . To get more of his advice and to watch his training videos, click here.

  3. x walks x x walks x is offline

    London
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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 8:06pm) in reply to sketchy1

    Could shove.

    Whats point flatting if he has AA your getting stacked anyway.

    I'd prob re-raise to 5,150 to try and get him all in pre or with the intention of never folding any flop if for some godly reason he flats you.

    that said never fold KK.
  4. Archem Archem is offline

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 8:24pm) in reply to JamesGordon00

    ok seriously....if i see one more of these stupid posts...no...you don't lay down KK preflop online....ever....especially in one of these tournies...these posts are so stupid...."uhhh tough spot early in 5$ rebuy with KK...should i fold" just stick it in...if he has AA...you're just cold decked, stop overthinking these hands, cuz hes probably an idiot with like 10s or something...maybe AK
     
  5. Royals16 Royals16 is offline

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 8:28pm) in reply to Archem

    Id like to know, when is it right to fold KK pre?
  6. JamesGordon00 JamesGordon00 is offline

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 8:28pm) in reply to Archem

    its not the 5r......it the $75 from 7pm on Full tilt.
    Thread Starter
  7. Archem Archem is offline

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 8:36pm) in reply to JamesGordon00

    i don't care what it is lol, im just emphasizing my point cuz it seems like everytime i log in here theres some post similar to this...folding KK preflop is VERY Negative EV...sure he could have AA this one time out of every 10-20 times you're in this spot...sorry if im coming across as a jerk but i just find it a little bit silly that's all....and even if you're wrong...still a 20% chance you get lucky lol
     
  8. peacebrother peacebrother is offline

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 8:36pm) in reply to Royals16

     
    Originally Posted by Royals16 View Post

    Id like to know, when is it right to fold KK pre?

    On the bubble of a sat and there are 3 all in:)
    Pre Never
  9. Royals16 Royals16 is offline

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 9:35pm) in reply to peacebrother

    Exactly ^
  10. JMcKW JMcKW is offline

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 10:01pm) in reply to peacebrother

     
    Originally Posted by peacebrother View Post

     
    Originally Posted by Royals16 View Post

    Id like to know, when is it right to fold KK pre?

    On the bubble of a sat and there are 3 all in:)
    Pre Never

    Agreed. If he has AA, then so be it.
  11. thelandlord thelandlord is offline

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 10:13pm) in reply to peacebrother

     
  12. I Spew Chips I Spew Chips is offline

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 10:21pm) in reply to thelandlord

    Im not ever folding here. Ship it in gl
     
  13. thearthurdog thearthurdog is offline

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 10:22pm) in reply to thelandlord

     
    Originally Posted by thelandlord View Post

    thelandlord speaks the truth.
  14. Imustcall Imustcall is offline

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 10:48pm) in reply to thearthurdog

    This thread is worth reading and gives a different perspective.

    http://www.pocketfives.com/poker-for...898617#3898617
  15. Shrubbery Shrubbery is offline

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    Feb 11th, 2009 (2/11/2009 11:50pm) in reply to Imustcall

    stop folding KK pre
     1
  16. poisoneye1986 poisoneye1986 is offline

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    Feb 12th, 2009 (2/12/2009 12:26am) in reply to Shrubbery

    ez fold
  17. Kelliher20 Kelliher20 is offline

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    Feb 12th, 2009 (2/12/2009 12:44am) in reply to poisoneye1986

    i really hope you didnt fold...
  18. RiverRejas RiverRejas is offline

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    Feb 12th, 2009 (2/12/2009 2:29am) in reply to Archem

    Get it all in and don't be result orientated if he has AA
  19. Lollo22aces Lollo22aces is offline

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    Feb 12th, 2009 (2/12/2009 3:00am) in reply to RiverRejas

    Hi all,i'm new in this forum:)

    i think here it's a very good spot 4 calling pre...fold here it's so bad....
  20. hushpuckena hushpuckena is offline

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    Feb 12th, 2009 (2/12/2009 3:53am) in reply to Royals16

     
    Originally Posted by Royals16 View Post

    Id like to know, when is it right to fold KK pre?

    Excluding the satellite-type situation alluded to, in which I'd also fold AA (though I've never had it there), I once did it online with deep money, facing a player whom I knew well- her third raise coming over my reraise with KK could be made only with AA, and after I mucked, was shown the rockets.
  21. mathclub mathclub is offline

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    Feb 12th, 2009 (2/12/2009 4:23am) in reply to hushpuckena

    I disagree with everyone here that you should never be folding KK pre. However the situation and all the conditions happen so rarely that you hardly ever end up doing it.

    i think i've folded it like 3 times in 6k odd tournaments
    2
  22. RapidRevilo RapidRevilo is offline

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    Feb 12th, 2009 (2/12/2009 6:13am) in reply to mathclub

    shove....

    he may not have AA and then you'd look like a fool for laying it. If he does have it then your still a hope to suckout (we've all seen it happen - probably with 29TJQ landing) and you'd still have 4000 left with no pressure from blinds....

    i have to agree with the mob though. folding KK pre outside of a satellite scenario just isnt cool....
  23. poker366 poker366 is offline

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    Feb 13th, 2009 (2/13/2009 12:31am) in reply to Royals16

    I folded KK preflop at the 2007 WSOP Main Event with 3 allins in front of me, we were getting close to the $$$, and I had 250k chips. Two of the stacks could of atleast crippled me......oh yeah AA AK QQ were the hands and AA won it....as far as online NEVER...
     
  24. phatchoy888 phatchoy888 is offline

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    Feb 13th, 2009 (2/13/2009 2:24am) in reply to poker366

    i'm not sure if u can say online NEVER

    pokerstars Game #20589377222: Tournament #200800033, $5000+$200 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (150/300) - 2008/09/21 18:21:05 ET
    Table '200800033 134' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 1: supadphat (25012 in chips)
    Seat 2: LittleStuey (24883 in chips)
    Seat 3: postbear (45993 in chips)
    Seat 4: treadmill69 (31900 in chips)
    Seat 5: djmanga23 (55770 in chips)
    Seat 6: DA DONG (23311 in chips)
    Seat 7: jeanette_33 (24364 in chips)
    Seat 8: alkemizt (27550 in chips)
    Seat 9: scsuhockey10 (21125 in chips)
    treadmill69: posts small blind 150
    djmanga23: posts big blind 300
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to supadphat [Ad Ah]
    DA DONG: calls 300
    jeanette_33: calls 300
    alkemizt: folds
    scsuhockey10: folds
    supadphat: raises 900 to 1200
    LittleStuey: folds
    postbear: folds
    treadmill69: folds
    djmanga23: calls 900
    DA DONG: folds
    jeanette_33: raises 4400 to 5600
    supadphat: raises 19412 to 25012 and is all-in
    djmanga23: folds
    jeanette_33: calls 18764 and is all-in
    Uncalled bet (648) returned to supadphat
    *** FLOP *** [7h 3s 9h]
    *** TURN *** [7h 3s 9h] [Kd]
    *** RIVER *** [7h 3s 9h Kd] [Qc]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    jeanette_33: shows [Ks Kc] (three of a kind, Kings)
    supadphat: shows [Ad Ah] (a pair of Aces)
    jeanette_33 collected 50378 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 50378 | Rake 0
    Board [7h 3s 9h Kd Qc]
    Seat 1: supadphat showed [Ad Ah] and lost with a pair of Aces
    Seat 2: LittleStuey folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: postbear (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: treadmill69 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 5: djmanga23 (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 6: DA DONG folded before Flop
    Seat 7: jeanette_33 showed [Ks Kc] and won (50378) with three of a kind, Kings
    Seat 8: alkemizt folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: scsuhockey10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
     
  25. AmSlim22 AmSlim22 is offline

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    Feb 13th, 2009 (2/13/2009 2:48am) in reply to phatchoy888

    i can think of at least 20 (and i think this is conservative, since it has happened 8 times in last week and half) that i have had KK pre and wanted to fold it bc i put the person on AA, i was right about 90%+ of the time and was not happy with myself for getting it in.

    just the other day in FTOPS KO 6-max i got in a hand 20 mins in that was raise i reraise and he 4 bets and i called my friend over to watch and time banked all the way down and finally said, "bleh its 6max i can't fold" click call and obv see AA

    wish i had done it live too, ran KK into AA in the wsop main event in blind v blind action and spent over 2 mins before i gave the sighhhhhhhhhhhhhh all in and get snapped in the 5th level.

    i also can only remember about 5 times where i have had my AA and someone elses KK

    lastly i did once run AA into 2 people's KK's and lost the pot to a flush....

    basically this is a bad beat post, but i do def think there are times when u can fold it usually has to be very early in a tourny and u have to have a real good reason, but if a player is overly tight and then is all of a sudden 3/4/5 betting with like 75bb+ stacks i think it is a pretty good sign that they may have AA.
     
  26. hushpuckena hushpuckena is offline

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    Feb 13th, 2009 (2/13/2009 3:36am) in reply to AmSlim22

     
    Originally Posted by AmSlim22 View Post


    usually has to be very early in a tourny and u have to have a real good reason, but if a player is overly tight and then is all of a sudden 3/4/5 betting with like 75bb+ stacks i think it is a pretty good sign that they may have AA.

    This was exactly how it went in the hand I had a few years back.

    We were in a 10K, and all more or less with that amount.The blinds were 25-50, it was raised to 250 by the first player to act, I was next with KK, made it 1000 and three seats after came an all-in for 10K.

    After the opener folded, I didn't think long before doing the same- I was shown AA, which wasn't at all surprising, as I knew the player, so that the kings were no good.
  27. Defndrofangels Defndrofangels is offline

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    Feb 13th, 2009 (2/13/2009 4:10am) in reply to hushpuckena

    I liked the examples about folding KK because the players knew the players that came over the top. Usually against a player you're just sitting down it's +EV to shove with KK. Just last night I had KK maybe my 4th hand in a table i had about 100BBs cash game 6 handed UTG limps I raise, guy behind me min reraises, UTG guy min reraises, and I just shove, original reraiser folds and UTG calls with AA. Probably with that 4th reraise I should've folded, but earlier in the week I got doubled up with KK 4 times almost under the same exact circumstances. 4 double ups and 1 time running into Aces or folding all 5 times? Which one would you prefer?
  28. RGallaway RGallaway is offline

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    Feb 13th, 2009 (2/13/2009 8:12am) in reply to JamesGordon00

    Shove it all....Hope he doesnt have aces, I don't think this is a hard choice.
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