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Limping with AsQs UTG ...

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  1. theCtrain theCtrain is offline

    Calgary
    Canada

    Posts: 2
    Joined: May 06

    Apr 18th, 2008 (4/18/2008 6:05pm)

    I was playing a Live Cash Game NLHE ($5/$5) and woke up with AsQs under the gun. I limped ... there were 2 other limpers and the BB Raised about the size of the pot. He was a fairly solid player but was pretty aggressive in those limpy situation. I flat called the raise in position (i was very confident the other limpers would fold), everyone else folded so we were heads up. He had me slightly covered but we were the deepest stacks at the table.

    Flop : A Q 10s

    I bet about 2/3 pot and he flat calls. I thought he might have AK, A 10, or 10s. .. although I figured he'd raise me with those hands. So I was pretty confused.

    Turn 3s

    I bet 1/2 pot and he raised me 3X. I was totally confused .... I was almost sure he ad 10 10. but I was pretty committed so I push my top 2 with nut flush draw. He turns over KJ. I never had that hand in his Range there at all ...

    River Blank ... I lose.

    I'm thinking my limp is a mistake ... my Flat call of his pre-flop raise is a mistake ... my push is a mistake ... any comments? Did I donk every street?
     
  2. creeps creeps is offline

    Posts: 1,605
    Joined: Feb 06

    Apr 18th, 2008 (4/18/2008 6:20pm) in reply to theCtrain

    i definitely don't put him on AK there if he flats the flop. AA, QQ, TT,AQ, AJ, KJ are the only ones I see that do...maybe a pissed off KK but that's about it.

    As for the turn you never got into stack sizes or pot sizes so i'm not sure if i fold or not. most likely no.
  3. adam_mc adam_mc is offline

    Ottawa
    Canada

    Posts: 1,207
    Joined: Aug 06

    Apr 19th, 2008 (4/19/2008 3:13am) in reply to creeps

    Why can he have AJ but not AK?

    If he has TT you have 4+9= 13 outs to the river or about 26%.

    If he has AK, AJ or AT here you are a significant favorite.

    Do some math. Stick it in because you have outs if you're wrong.
  4. MatR MatR is offline

    Enschede
    Netherlands

    Posts: 22
    Joined: Nov 07

    Apr 19th, 2008 (4/19/2008 3:52am) in reply to theCtrain

    the check/call followed by the small c/raise on the turn is very scary considering he's the preflop raiser. If he has TT he would either bet out the flop or check/raise why would he take the risk of a K or a J on the turn. With a hand like AK he would want to know where he's at and cbet the flop. Other options like AA or QQ (albeit less likely) might play it this way but they have you beat as well. I think when he check/raises the turn you're almost definitely behind. You didn't give much information about the stack sizes but with the "full house draw" and the nut flush draw I'd flat call the turn. Folding on the river is hard but if he bets big enough you probably should (you said he was fairly solid I don't see him making a move here, if you think he's capable of it you might have to call)

    maybe you can give some info on the stacks
  5. garytheone garytheone is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 62
    Joined: Feb 08

    Apr 23rd, 2008 (4/23/2008 9:43am) in reply to MatR

    Hmmm you have to think to yourself it's either a set or a straight on the turn and I think you fold in here normally but picking up the extra 9 outs makes it tough. 13 outs isn't that bad to get all your money in with and I don't think raising would of made to much of a difference in this case
  6. sotti sotti is offline

    Portland, OR
    United States

    Posts: 1,342
    Joined: Sep 06

    Apr 23rd, 2008 (4/23/2008 12:12pm) in reply to theCtrain

    Yes against that specific hand it was horrible, but you can't play against a specific hand you have to play against a range of hands.

    What other hands could he have had that he would play in a similar fashion, AT you said, maybe TT, althought you have exactly the same # of outs against TT as you do against KJ, so if you think he has TT, KJ is exactly the same, you need to boat up or flush to win the pot.

    Since you make no mention of stack sizes or pot sizes it's hard to say how your push was on the turn, but you've got 13 outs with means you'll need roughly 3:1 pot odds to justify getting it in. You can work those odds somewhat backwards, and assume your push. Lets say you put your opponent on TT, QQ, AA, AT, AJ, AQ, AK and KJ. well some of those hands have you in bad shape, but you have outs against all of them, in fact your hand is a favorite against that range 60/40 with one card to come, because when you are winning you are killing him and when you are behind you have outs.

    So when he reraised you 3x the pot size, stack size is pretty importnant. You can almost assume he comes over the top there for his whole stack so there was pot + 1/2 pot raise + 3/2 pot reraise = 3x the original pot + what he has left -1/2 pot = you what you need to think about as a call to figure out your odds. Since AT and AK aren't escaping here and you are way ahead, and if you've got anywhere in the vacinity of 2:1 pot odds (assuming he's already all in, when you do the calc) then yeah I don't think this was bad play on the flop/turn at all.

    The limp call was extremely deceptive and there is zero chance he has you on anything as strong as AQ, I would be he's thinking you have like a J9 kind of hand for an up and down draw. Also think about how this goes if played strong, you raise with AQ preflop, everybody folds BB smooth calls, then he either checks with the intention of check raising you or put a medium sized lead bet, you either bet or reraise his lead, then he either smooth calls or raises, and by the time the turn comes he knows he has you and puts in a really solid bet. Can you get away from the top two + nut flush draw here?
  7. trojanmana trojanmana is offline

    Compton, CA
    United States

    Posts: 288
    Joined: Oct 07

    Apr 24th, 2008 (4/24/2008 1:31pm) in reply to theCtrain

    wouldnt checking the turn be a good idea? free draw and pot control.
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