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Live 1/2 hand from MGM the other night....thoughts? wwyd?

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  1. adnsdd adnsdd is offline

    Thousand Oaks, CA
    United States

    Posts: 209
    Joined: May 05

    Apr 24th, 2011 (4/24/2011 10:56pm)

    I was in Vegas the last few days and played a little 1/2 over at MGM when the following hand came up. Now, I already know I butchered the hand and I think I know what I should've done, but wanted to hear some of your opinions.

    The table was pretty solid (at least to me). There were no big all ins and they had seen me lay down a set to a straight, saw me lose with a set to a straight, and saw me lose with top pair to a flush (i was short at the time...so not a biggie). I guess you can call it a cold deck for me...i dunno. The villain in this hand was a solid player. He always seemed to have the goods at showdown and had built his stack up to about 300 from 200.

    anyway,

    villain ($300)
    me ($200)

    i open raised from middle position with AdAs to $11 (std i guess)
    villain was the only caller

    Flop: Jc Js Tc

    villain checked
    i bet $15
    villain check raised to $30
    I call (i'm pretty sure i should've raised here)

    Turn: 5h
    villain bet out $55....

    what is your play here?

    i know i play bad, etc, but i'm looking for some opinions. thx.
  2. wickedfamous wickedfamous is offline

    Vancouver, WA
    United States

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    Apr 24th, 2011 (4/24/2011 11:01pm) in reply to adnsdd

    I'm a fish, so this is what I would do, and what you should never do. I check behind on the flop, let him bet the turn and hollywood for a minute before raising 3x. His further action should define his hand pretty clearly. Again, I'm a fish so this is what not to do.
  3. deadeyehank deadeyehank is offline

    United Kingdom

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    Apr 24th, 2011 (4/24/2011 11:32pm) in reply to dpitts06

    hmm, im interested to see some responses here too.

    as played i reckon i get it in.

    I think a J is never min raising like that. id have him on some kinda good draw. there's what? like a hundred forty in there. You stick the rest in and he probly calls with KQ or clubs. He could have a T here i guess
  4. BSherman2 BSherman2 is offline

    Tonawanda, NY
    United States

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    Apr 24th, 2011 (4/24/2011 11:44pm) in reply to deadeyehank

    Maybe I'm a nit but im pretty sure I flat the minraise then fold to the turn bet. You're beating a lot of his min bet range so the flats fine, but in a live 1/2 game thats def a jack a lot, and the turn bet sizing just screams strength after the flop action. From my experience live 200nl players wont check raise and put in a "big" bet like that unless they are real strong.
  5. bdluss bdluss is offline

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    Apr 24th, 2011 (4/24/2011 11:50pm) in reply to BSherman2

    I do like the check behind against a good player. Here is why, he can be doing this with a J (I have seen many a live player especially min raise with a monster). He could be doing this with a big draw. Or 10s full.

    My gut here, on the turn, without any reads or being there is to fold. My idea is to play big pots with big hands in cash games. You have two pair right here, not a big hand given the board. The other reason, is if you call here you are probably going to have to call a $100 river bet. Two pair on that board I don't feel is worth $155.

    This is why checking behind for pot control is best. If he checks turn, you bet and if he min raises you can still call and probably call the $55 on the river. The reason is how you played it, now you have to call a $100 bet also on the river if you believe you have the best hand. Also, your AA hand is under represented with the flop check, so he might be making this bet with a 10.
    Edited By: bdluss Apr 24th, 2011 at 11:51 PM
     
  6. adnsdd adnsdd is offline

    Thousand Oaks, CA
    United States

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    Apr 25th, 2011 (4/25/2011 12:27am) in reply to bdluss

    I like the feedback guys, thanks. Lets keep em coming. I think my passive play on the flop led to a tougher turn decision than it had to be.

    Keep in mind, in my opinion, this guy was tight aggressive I guess. He'd always show the best hand at showdown in his other hands.

    Some hands that occurred with me earlier might help give you an idea of what the table saw from me:

    JcJh v KsKd....on a Qs Js Ts flop 9c (turn). $10 bet pre, i call, $20 bet flop ..i call. $50 turn...i fold

    99 v KTo....flop 9JQ rainbow, turn 3, riv A. player was weak and was the only caller to my pf raise. he smooth called down to the river and i doubled him up (he was short). Last hand i put him on was KT...put him on KQ or QJ

    66 v 99 on a 542 board. I folded to initial raisers flop bet...showed my hand to get some info from him. he flipped the 99. I put him on the overs however, showing my hand probably told the table that i was nitty by just folding outright on the flop.

    this should give you an idea of how I was viewed by the table.
    Thread Starter
  7. Flopnuts1 Flopnuts1 is offline

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    Apr 25th, 2011 (4/25/2011 7:35pm) in reply to adnsdd

     
    Originally Posted by adnsdd View Post

    I was in Vegas the last few days and played a little 1/2 over at MGM when the following hand came up. Now, I already know I butchered the hand and I think I know what I should've done, but wanted to hear some of your opinions.

    The table was pretty solid (at least to me). There were no big all ins and they had seen me lay down a set to a straight, saw me lose with a set to a straight, and saw me lose with top pair to a flush (i was short at the time...so not a biggie). I guess you can call it a cold deck for me...i dunno. The villain in this hand was a solid player. He always seemed to have the goods at showdown and had built his stack up to about 300 from 200.

    anyway,

    villain ($300)
    me ($200)

    i open raised from middle position with AdAs to $11 (std i guess)
    villain was the only caller

    Flop: Jc Js Tc

    villain checked
    i bet $15
    villain check raised to $30
    I call (i'm pretty sure i should've raised here)

    Turn: 5h
    villain bet out $55....

    what is your play here?

    i know i play bad, etc, but i'm looking for some opinions. thx.

    Flat min raise flop, flat turn and re-evaluate river. This allows him to bluff again with weaker hands and keeps your hand underrepped. If he's solid like you say he's unlikely to barrel on the river again unless he hits his draw or he actually has trips.
  8. BreakEvenFish BreakEvenFish is offline

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    Apr 26th, 2011 (4/26/2011 12:59am) in reply to Flopnuts1

     
    Originally Posted by Flopnuts1 View Post

    Flat min raise flop, flat turn and re-evaluate river. This allows him to bluff again with weaker hands and keeps your hand underrepped. If he's solid like you say he's unlikely to barrel on the river again unless he hits his draw or he actually has trips.

    That's not true at all. A good cash player isn't going to min-raise the flop, barrel the turn, and then check the river. But just calling all the way we're really turning our hand face up to a good player and repping a super narrow range of overpairs and KQ.

    How are we under-repped? Are we calling all these bets with Tx or an underpair to the board?
  9. Flopnuts1 Flopnuts1 is offline

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    Apr 26th, 2011 (4/26/2011 1:22am) in reply to BreakEvenFish

     
    Originally Posted by BreakEvenFish View Post

    That's not true at all. A good cash player isn't going to min-raise the flop, barrel the turn, and then check the river. But just calling all the way we're really turning our hand face up to a good player and repping a super narrow range of overpairs and KQ.

    How are we under-repped? Are we calling all these bets with Tx or an underpair to the board?

    Good point. But you think he's min raising with trips? not likely IMO. Looks more like a draw. Doubt I'm folding that turn cuz most of his range is A10, K10, KQ or other FDs, not trips.
  10. sKizzle1983 sKizzle1983 is offline

    Akron, OH
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    Apr 26th, 2011 (4/26/2011 5:51pm) in reply to Flopnuts1

    I think its a really dangerous flop for the villian NOT to raise if he flops trips... It is a 1/2 game, and I would want the initial raiser to pay for the draws if I were the villian... Just flat calling that board would be a bad play, and negative equity IMO - or if he has a great read on your hand, and think you will call with an over-pair it is still a great raise...

    On the other hand, it looks like villian is trying pot control, keeping the bets small looking for an out... The min-raise after the flop and the little bigger than half pot size bet on the turn seem meh... I think you should probably jam here... if he calls with the J, then cooler and you still have a few outs, but if its a KQ, even a big KcQc draw, you have a few of his outs and about a 3 to 1 favorite into a double up...
  11. adnsdd adnsdd is offline

    Thousand Oaks, CA
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    Apr 26th, 2011 (4/26/2011 7:22pm) in reply to sKizzle1983

    I agree here. I think I should've either 3 bet the flop to see where i was in the hand or jam his bet on the turn. Looking back, I just can't see him betting like that with a jack and certainly not TT. I'm not sure if I was tired (it was about 3am), but my thought process just couldn't put the hand together and I got owned basically.

    I ended up folding the turn, which in hindsight was just horrible. He flipped up AK off (Kc) and said he put me on QQ giving him a few outs if I jammed or flatted the turn bet. I was too pissed to tell them what I had and left a few hands later (lol).

    I think I put myself in this spot revealing my cards on the previous hands which let the villain know I was capable of laying down big hands. But he had also seen me bet into the nuts with my bottom set to the river as well, so who knows..... I think I played the hand pretty weak, but I also thought the villain played the hand well too.

    I only play live maybe 2-3 time/year so it was definitely a good time, but a bad way to end the trip. I did end up a few hundred, so it wasn't too bad.

    Thanks for input guys.
    Thread Starter
  12. Etrain99 Etrain99 is offline

    Canton, MA
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    Apr 27th, 2011 (4/27/2011 8:25am) in reply to adnsdd

    Check flop for pot control. It is quite the drawy board as well so if a blank comes turn you can throw in a nice bet which he will still call anyways if he has any type of draw which you will still get value from. If he leads turn you can throw in the raise if you feel so inclined which will pretty much tell you where you're at. This way you are paying the same price as you would in your current situation but now you know for sure what is going on. I only lead here if I have a very good feel for the player and can pretty much predict what his move would be in these spots or if I have stack more suitable for raising in this situation. As is, it makes it very awkward and can lead to more of a guessing game than anything else.
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