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  1. 2/4 NL 6 Handed
    hero - ~ 725
    Villain - ~ 500

    I'm UTG w/AKo and I make it 10 (std is usually 10-14, so its just on the low side for this game), Villain utg+1 calls (he's a friend of a reg who I just met, so no reads), button calls. Preflop, I think Villain's range is ATs+, AQo+(maybe AJo), 66-TT (maybe JJ), T9s+ (maybe 89s+)


    Flop comes As4sJc and I have Ks, I check and villain bets 30, button folds, I call. Villain's range is nearly always his aces when he bets here, imo, but I may be completely wrong (please help with this read if you disagree), so I think check/calling is fine b/c I'm either behind with AJ or ahead of AQ. Since the majority of the aces in his pre flop range are suited, he's not on a backdoor draw often (not that this hurts me). Actually, in the few instances that he has a low flush, my hand may have value check/raising with my Ks if the spade comes on turn.

    Turn comes 6c and I check/call a bet of 70. Here, I'm not sure about the check/call. I still don't put him on any draws and I think he's got mostly AJ, AQ and the random AT and flush draw (btw, I don't think flush draws should bet this board, but I may be wrong).

    River comes Qd. I check and he bets 90 into pot of 236. I'm getting roughly 3 to 1. I think about a year ago, I would have just snap called this, but I actually had to really think about this for a while because I don't put him on anything except AJ or AQ to make that 3 barrel play.

    Is folding the right play? How badly did I mangle this hand and why?
  2. i think you are giving villian way too much credit in this hand, you were the intital raiser, but you check the flop, which is ok but hitting top pair top kicker you have to believe you are way ahead most of the time, i think you should be either check raising the flop or the turn for value here, also you can fold if he really shows strength, as played i would flat call his river bet since you still hold top pair top kicker, the q is a bit of a scare card but not enough to fold getting 3 to 1. aq aj and qj are def in his range here and then you are beat but there are too many other hands that you have beat here that he would of played the same way because you showed so much weakness, he might think he is ahead with any ace or a kj type hand, or he might have a smaller pair or flush draw, i think a flush draw is less likely as he would prob have bet more to get you off the hand, but this is only 2/4 and no reads on this player so no way to tell what kind of player he is
  3.  
    Originally Posted by douglasfryan View Post

    i think you are giving villian way too much credit in this hand, you were the intital raiser, but you check the flop, which is ok but hitting top pair top kicker you have to believe you are way ahead most of the time, i think you should be either check raising the flop or the turn for value here, also you can fold if he really shows strength, as played i would flat call his river bet since you still hold top pair top kicker, the q is a bit of a scare card but not enough to fold getting 3 to 1. aq aj and qj are def in his range here and then you are beat but there are too many other hands that you have beat here that he would of played the same way because you showed so much weakness, he might think he is ahead with any ace or a kj type hand, or he might have a smaller pair or flush draw, i think a flush draw is less likely as he would prob have bet more to get you off the hand, but this is only 2/4 and no reads on this player so no way to tell what kind of player he is

    What aces are played like this that we are beating? I think ATs (but not cc, because I'm sure that AcXc is betting turn), so you have ATdd, AThh and I doubt those hands 3 barrel. What jacks are really taking that line on the flop, turn & river (I'd imagine any J except QJ would either Bet/Check/Bet or Bet/Check/Check that board and QJ doing only the former)?
    Thread Starter
  4. You really f'd this hand up. Checking the flop without a plan is just bad. I mean why are you check calling if you put him on aj? I think you either have to lead the flop or check with intentions of check raising. As played I guess your question is call or fold on the riv, Which If I don't have a good read on the player I might fold but If it's someone I know is capable of 3 barrel bluffing with a pair and flush draw or something I snap all day. Really has a lot to do with the dynamic.

    90 bet on the riv could also be a value bluff with a busted flush draw if the dood knows what he's doing. But I think a set is in his range along with qj type of hands.
  5. Flawed as it may be, I was not check/calling without a plan. I was check calling, because it was a very draw heavy board and I don't want to get 3bet off the best hand and I did not believe I would get value from any worse hands. I didn't put him on AJ, I actually think he's much more likely to have AQ and I don't want him to get smart and make a lay down. I honestly think that if any mistake in this hand was made, it was not making some raise or bet on the turn. I could certainly be wrong, but I definitely think the check/call on that flop is certainly fine. You say I need to lead or check/raise flop, but why? When I lead, where do I get value (are any jacks calling?)? When I check/raise, aren't I nearly always going to get folds out of worse hands except maybe AQ and even then AQ could find a fold. I really think I'm getting a lot more value by check/calling this flop, but like I said, please explain your reasoning beyond, "you really f'd this hand up." Not very constructive.
    Thread Starter
  6. everything you're saying about the board and what cards he might hold sounds right, but what i think you needed to do is either lead out 45 on the turn and fold to a shove, or check-shove the turn, or something other than flatting both the flop and the turn.

    as played, i think u gotta call here, because you did nothing to find out where you are in the hand, and may be folding away the better hand. i understand your dilemma- his bets of 30, 70, and 90 seem like value bets for his set, or more likely, the 2nd pair he picked up along the way. however, in the ranges you defined, there are numerous hands he could have been semi-bluffing on each street.

    i might be looking at how long it took him to decide on his bet sizing. if he took just a few seconds to decide on the bet sizing, he could have been playing on the pot, feeling like he needed to make a play, and his only decision was bet sizing. if he really seemed to be thinking, he's trying to figure out what you may have, what you may do, etc. with two pair, he may glance at the board to check against straight draws, may try and decide if you could have a PP and a set, or if you have air and may fold to anything big. he had a lot more to think about with a hand than he did with a bluff.

    i've played mostly MTT so take it with a grain of salt...

    regarding my suggestion of 45, that may be a bad idea. some on here might say if you lead out 45, you have to call a shove. i like 45 there because you maintain some level of pot control and i think it may cause your opponent to define their hand a little more, i dunno....
    Edited By: gjallen1975 Aug 10th, 2011 at 04:19 AM
  7.  
    Originally Posted by 13Jayhawk13 View Post

    2/4 NL 6 Handed
    hero - ~ 725
    Villain - ~ 500

    I'm UTG w/AKo and I make it 10 (std is usually 10-14, so its just on the low side for this game),

    I stopped reading after this. I have no idea why we're raising so small preflop when we are > 100xbb deep. This is especially true in a live setting where people's calling range has nothing to do with the size of our bet, but the value of their cards.
  8. We are playing with lots of $1 chips and $5 chips. Also, these guys are all internet players who have become accustomed to the smaller raises. So about 2/3s of the players here, will just make it two $5 chips for an open and then play 4 $5 chips for a 3bet; I'm not saying that's std in most live games, but it really is in this game. I am one of the guys that normally throws in 2 $5 chips, so I kept it std. These are all competent players, so no one really is calling all that light. This is not a casino, but rather a home game where I know all of the players (except this guy who was an invite on this day).
    Thread Starter
  9. I think you have to check raise the flop to find out where you are in the hand right now he could have anything from a set to air. c/r to 85 and find out where your hand is compared to his. And raise more utg then just 10 if its 6 handed you want to go heads up and not get the 65o people in this hand.
  10. I'm pretty sure that gjallen is right about making some move on the flop or the turn. The only thing I disagree with is that these moves on the flop or turn are done "to find out where you are in the hand." I think purely informational betting or raising is pretty bad, but often a bet or raise for value or as a bluff also serves to help define the villain's hand range.

    In this case, I really thought this guy was likely to have AQ+ and I tank folded the river. However, before mucking, I told him I'd bet him $100 that I had the best hand until the river. He said there was no way I folded a hand that had him beat on the turn so he accepted, turned over AQ, I look like a genius and end up only losing $10 in the hand.

    In retrospect, the dumbest play that I made was actually offering the $100 prop bet, because I was pretty much putting him on a single hand. However, there is a lot of dick measuring in this game and I probably got a few inches added on for this fold and bet. Tytyty for the advice, I agree I definitely should have made some bet or raise on the flop or turn to make him make a mistake and define his hand.
    Thread Starter
  11. by check calling the turn u have to remember tht u are initiating the turn bet for 70 by checking again so if its check calling tht u are doing thn the river is a must call due to the fact tht u initiated the whole thing thru check deception........... check raising to 75 on the flop is the way i like it but i really prefer to c-bet the flop out the gate ..........the checking is no information but its also a reminder tht its an enticement weapon as well
     1
  12. one of the toughest hands to play in that position this deep

    preflop: raise obv. bet sizing? since u say that is the norm at this game then i guess it is ok. live where i play it is usually 5x-8x the blind. ill take ur word on it being standard and say its fine.

    flop: i feel like a cbet is in order here. checking gives ur opponents free cards and reveals no info about their hand. bet>check imo. once u check, its a call. i would hate to raise in this spot and i think folding is too weak.

    turn: since u checked the flop i feel like u got to check the turn. when he bets i think u have to call again. raising puts u in an awkward spot. if he pushes and u fold, u turn ur hand into a bluff. raising and calling a shove is kinda spewy imo. lot of chips for tptk out of position seems bush league. must call

    river: good news, the flush didnt get there. he could have been semi bluffing. bad news another broadway card hit. u cant bet here. have to check and see what he does. he makes a smallish bet. he bet all 3 opportunities. he should have air or a really strong hand here. set of 4's, AJ, dont see AQ here. jack with a spade kicker possibly a queen. i feel like u should call here. if ur beat, u can store this away for future use and adjust next time.
  13. Your hand is pretty damn underrepped even though it's just TPTK. Hard to fold here when you never really narrowed his range and have no history.

    And doubt I check this multiway and let a free card come off. Keeping the initiative allows for easier decisions and more information here.

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