Check out our brand new Local Poker Communities! Get updates and interact with poker players in your area.
Visit the United States Poker Community | Visit the California Poker Community | Read more about the Launch of P5s Local

Live Sattellite hand - debate over how to play it...edit/results

Reply to Thread
  1. kgil33 kgil33 is offline

    Tulsa, OK
    United States

    Posts: 220
    Joined: Jun 06

    Aug 10th, 2009 (8/10/2009 2:07pm)

    Winstar Casino on the OK/TX border. $440 sat. to the ME which has a 3M guarantee.
    450 entered (plus unknown # of alternates). At least 100 will get seats and there is ~186 left when this hand comes up that a friend was in.

    600/1200/100 (ten handed)

    UTG limps (~5k behind)
    UTG +1 raises to 3600 (also ~5k behind)
    fold
    fold
    Hero AsKs, stack of 18K
    remaining 5 that havent acted all have 20-25K stacks.

    There are obviously 4 options. Fold. Flat. Raise (but not shove). Shove.

    Most of our discussion amongst several of people has all been after knowing the results of the hand and 1 person in particular thinks Flatting is the best option. He's too stubborn to realize that is results oriented. Personally, I think flatting is the absolute worst play of the 4 (with raise/but not shove a close 2nd.)

    Results to follow, of course, but wwyd at this point - and why?

    Oh, and if it matters, my friend's image is pretty tight to almost uber nit as far as her tablemates think...which is pretty true.

    Edit/Results:

    Turns out UTG limped with 44 (absolutely horrible), UTG +1 RR with TT (also absohorrid). My friend shoved. Unfortunately SB woke up with KK and after about a full minute of debate (he knew my friend was tight) reluctantly called. UTG and UTG +1 both folded (more terribad). Board shot blanks (actually a 4 on the turn but irrelevant b/c UTG played his hand as bad as humanly possible) and KK held.

    That was part of the friends "reasoning" for flatting, was because he heard the story after the fact, and knew SB had KK. Results oriented FTL.

    Thanks all
  2. kgil33 kgil33 is offline

    Tulsa, OK
    United States

    Posts: 220
    Joined: Jun 06

    Aug 10th, 2009 (8/10/2009 3:33pm) in reply to kgil33

    Anyone, please?

    This seems standard shove to me. I guess I'm looking for confirmation and reasons for against any of the other options.

    Am I missing any info?
    Thread Starter
  3. pharreal87 pharreal87 is offline

    Posts: 3,589
    Joined: Apr 08

    Aug 10th, 2009 (8/10/2009 3:37pm) in reply to kgil33

    fold, utg limper has Aces
  4. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

    Westland, MI
    United States

    Posts: 6,364
    Joined: Mar 06

    Aug 10th, 2009 (8/10/2009 3:59pm) in reply to kgil33

    What are the average stacks at this point in the tournament? How are blinds looking for the near term.

    Because, to be honest, if she's 5th in chips right now, and the top 4 stacks are all at her table, this is at best a flat, since you can't shove into them.

    I think reads on the bigger stacks play out here. Assuming she's around 90th or so in chips, I don't think folding is an option, so how are the bigger stacks playing? If she makes it about 8k, does she have confidence that they will fold almost every hand to her? Is she planning to call if they come over the top?

    If she's calling anyway, then just shove now. If she has a solid read on one or more of the big stacks, then raise to about 8k, then fold to a bigger stack push.

    No reads, just shove.
  5. Goal4Ziggy Goal4Ziggy is offline

    Brooklyn, NY
    United States

    Posts: 1,296
    Joined: Jul 06

    Aug 10th, 2009 (8/10/2009 4:30pm) in reply to kgil33

    Just shove, live people are clueless, you aren't close enough to the seat and you have AK. Flatting would be awful because you don't want a caller behind you and a shove with this action could even fold out a pair as big as TT. I'm guessing your friend who thinks that flatting is the best option is arguing that no one will reshove with worse so there is no point in shoving but he is wrong because someone might call behind with like 88 or AJ or something which u really don't want. Just shove ur hand is too big and there is enough in the pot even if you lose you still have 13k and enough fold equity to pick up chips.
  6. optika11329 optika11329 is offline

    Leeds
    United Kingdom

    Posts: 543
    Joined: Mar 07

    Aug 10th, 2009 (8/10/2009 5:47pm) in reply to Goal4Ziggy

    Why are there so many words in this thread?!?!?!?!?

    Only 1 option - shove

    /thread
     
  7. kgil33 kgil33 is offline

    Tulsa, OK
    United States

    Posts: 220
    Joined: Jun 06

    Aug 10th, 2009 (8/10/2009 5:51pm) in reply to lordxixor101

     
    Originally Posted by lordxixor101 View Post

    What are the average stacks at this point in the tournament? How are blinds looking for the near term.

    Because, to be honest, if she's 5th in chips right now, and the top 4 stacks are all at her table, this is at best a flat, since you can't shove into them.

    I think reads on the bigger stacks play out here. Assuming she's around 90th or so in chips, I don't think folding is an option, so how are the bigger stacks playing? If she makes it about 8k, does she have confidence that they will fold almost every hand to her? Is she planning to call if they come over the top?

    If she's calling anyway, then just shove now. If she has a solid read on one or more of the big stacks, then raise to about 8k, then fold to a bigger stack push.

    No reads, just shove.

    Ahh, yes. Good questions. New level (600/1200/100) had just started within the last 5 minutes, and levels are 30 minutes long. Average stack is ~13K (based on 5k starting stack, 450 initial runners and guesstimate of 50 alternates getting in) for the entire tourney, she was 3rd big stack on her table, but close in stack size with 3-4 others. Of the people yet to act, she had all of them covered (except SB) - but barely. Any callers will severely cripple her. Also, she has said that her table had been playing out in such that they all loved to limp and most always folded to raise with rarely more than 1 caller.

    We'd discussed raising but not shoving - but is that even realistic? I'm not being sarcastic here - I (we) are trying to learn. 3 betting 40-45% of your stack then folding to a 4bet has to involve a soul read, no?

    TY lordX...great questions/response
    Thread Starter
  8. kgil33 kgil33 is offline

    Tulsa, OK
    United States

    Posts: 220
    Joined: Jun 06

    Aug 10th, 2009 (8/10/2009 5:55pm) in reply to Goal4Ziggy

     
    Originally Posted by Goal4Ziggy View Post

    Just shove, live people are clueless, you aren't close enough to the seat and you have AK. Flatting would be awful because you don't want a caller behind you and a shove with this action could even fold out a pair as big as TT. I'm guessing your friend who thinks that flatting is the best option is arguing that no one will reshove with worse so there is no point in shoving but he is wrong because someone might call behind with like 88 or AJ or something which u really don't want. Just shove ur hand is too big and there is enough in the pot even if you lose you still have 13k and enough fold equity to pick up chips.

    partly this, yes. Also, his line of thinking is totally results oriented. I'm not giving the results of the hand in the question so far for that exact reason. Hindsight is 20/20 - yet blinds some people (the friend) from contsructive discussions.
    Thread Starter
  9. kgil33 kgil33 is offline

    Tulsa, OK
    United States

    Posts: 220
    Joined: Jun 06

    Aug 10th, 2009 (8/10/2009 5:57pm) in reply to optika11329

    I agree - but that's why the thread is here. Trying to learn/get thoughts from others to see why other options might be valid.

    edit: that was for optika's reply but I can't seem to get his quote in here....sigh
    Thread Starter
  10. optika11329 optika11329 is offline

    Leeds
    United Kingdom

    Posts: 543
    Joined: Mar 07

    Aug 10th, 2009 (8/10/2009 6:11pm) in reply to kgil33

    there is no debate here - you are a million miles away from the bubble - so no ICM factors - what are you hoping for?

    if you had a seat locked, it was the CL who limped and you are 2 off the bubble - im listening - this hand deserves zero debate - and your donkey friends who say flat are clueless!

    (sorry im in a bad mood and being blunt)
     
  11. poumi554 poumi554 is offline

    New Zealand

    Posts: 896
    Joined: Sep 07

    Aug 10th, 2009 (8/10/2009 6:42pm) in reply to kgil33

    You gotta fold, obv one of the blinds wakes up with AA!

    Just fold and then walk outside and burn another $440 and dont enter the next tourn, save your friend some time!
  12. kgil33 kgil33 is offline

    Tulsa, OK
    United States

    Posts: 220
    Joined: Jun 06

    Aug 10th, 2009 (8/10/2009 7:07pm) in reply to optika11329

     
    Originally Posted by optika11329 View Post

    there is no debate here - you are a million miles away from the bubble - so no ICM factors - what are you hoping for?

    if you had a seat locked, it was the CL who limped and you are 2 off the bubble - im listening - this hand deserves zero debate - and your donkey friends who say flat are clueless!

    (sorry im in a bad mood and being blunt)

    LOL....np man. I agree 100000%

    Turns out UTG limped with 44 (absolutely horrible), UTG +1 RR with TT (also absohorrid). My friend shoved. Unfortunately SB woke up with KK and after about a full minute of debate (he knew my friend was tight) reluctantly called. UTG and UTG +1 both folded (more terribad). Board shot blanks (actually a 4 on the turn but irrelevant b/c UTG played his hand as bad as humanly possible) and KK held.

    That was part of the friends "reasoning" for flatting, was because he heard the story after the fact, and knew SB had KK. Results oriented FTL.

    Thanks all
    Thread Starter
Reply to Thread