Check out our brand new Local Poker Communities! Get updates and interact with poker players in your area.
Visit the United States Poker Community | Visit the California Poker Community | Read more about the Launch of P5s Local

Loose play to win tournaments?

Reply to Thread
  1. CUlater CUlater is offline

    Monroe, LA
    United States

    Posts: 30
    Joined: Mar 05

    Mar 29th, 2005 (3/29/2005 8:44pm)

    I am a fairly tight player. I have witnessed the success of Phil Hellmuth and Dan Harrington and have concluded that tight-agressive play is the way to go in tournaments. Thats why I was a little suprised when I read an article by Mike Sexton in CardPlayer Magazine that explained that playing loose in tourneys is the correct strategy. His emphasis is that you have to maintain a large chip count throughout the tournament to win. I don't really understand the logic of this strategy when so many people today call down to the river with crap. I like the Sklansky approach to tournament survival with patience and a few good cards. Granted, some days you will receive ice cold cards and will have to change your game, but this doesn't happen too often. I just wanted some input from you all about the advantages of playing loose in big tourneys. I might consider trying it out if there are some compelling arguments.
  2. turtle2491 turtle2491 is offline

    Posts: 39
    Joined: Mar 05

    Mar 29th, 2005 (3/29/2005 8:52pm) in reply to CUlater

    I agree with your initial statement. That is how I play and I am by no means anything special but I feel it is the correct way to play. I also feel that you need to switch every so often during a tournament based on how the table is playing but for the most part I feel Tight is Right

    Turtle
  3. AawwNutz AawwNutz is offline

    Lewisville, TX
    United States

    Posts: 1,218
    Joined: Feb 05

    Mar 29th, 2005 (3/29/2005 8:53pm) in reply to CUlater

    At a party poker seminar at Party Poker Million, I asked Mike Sexton that EXACT question.

    His response was that he said that tight play is not the best strategy for winning tournaments. He did not mean to imply that loose play was the correct strategy. He prefers active aggressive play because they are always "chopping away" at pots and winning by betting. He says that you'll see guys like Phil Ivey open a lot of pots, but won't call big raises with very many hands. Phil Ivey will seldom call you with AJ, but he'll call you a lot with 9 10s. You have to realize that the top pros are not really playing only cards, they are playing people and situations.

    BTW, I'm not sure that Hellmuth exactly fits the tight image all of the time. I've seen him play ridiculously fast, but he can sure shut it down at times.
     
  4. Adam Adam is offline Emperor

    Atlanta, GA
    United States

    Posts: 12,629
    Joined: Dec 04

    Mar 29th, 2005 (3/29/2005 9:28pm) in reply to CUlater

    I think it's interesting to read about people's strategies in tournaments. Remember that word: strategy. In my opinion, the key to winning tournaments is to have a strategy, and too many people, who aren't winners, don't have one.

    You don't have to play tight or loose to win. What you do need is to know how you're going to get chips. Sometimes that varies from tournament to tournament and from table to table, even from time to time at the same table. If you have a strategy with methods that you've proven to yourself to work and you know how you're going to obtain chips, then you're a big step ahead of most players.
     
  5. CUlater CUlater is offline

    Monroe, LA
    United States

    Posts: 30
    Joined: Mar 05

    Mar 29th, 2005 (3/29/2005 9:54pm) in reply to CUlater

    Thanks for the input. I think one reason why Sexton argues for this style is because Stu Ungar blew threw the competition by playing loose-aggressive. But today I just don't think it is too smart to try when so many novices don't understand the finer points of hold'em.
    Thread Starter
  6. Weapon X Weapon X is offline

    Long Beach, CA
    United States

    Posts: 183
    Joined: Jan 05

    Mar 30th, 2005 (3/30/2005 1:28am) in reply to CUlater

    the key is to know the pro's and con's of both sides kinda like kung fu you never know if you will need to be the tiger or the snake ....

    i belive that it was bruce lee who said " Be like water my friend be like water "

    Weapon X
  7. Nomack Nomack is offline

    Pittsburgh, PA
    United States

    Posts: 24
    Joined: Feb 05

    Mar 30th, 2005 (3/30/2005 2:56am) in reply to CUlater

    my two cents.

    learn how to play loose. learn how to play tight. learn how to shift gears. play/watch enough tournaments to get a feel for when these styles will be of most benefit at different times in the tourney.

    also, learn to play the short stack and learn to play the big stack. i actually think that knowing how to play the big stack is a much more valuable skill as this will win you more tournaments and big pay days. knowing how to play short stacks or play tight (same principle in my mind) will get you into the money more. if you have a bit of a bankroll though you gotta go for the gold from time to time, and this may mean loosening up and gambling a bit more earlier on. more early exits, but more shots at FT's. i haven't played too much with pokerho, but from what i've read/heard this is how he plays. he is not afraid of being the first one out of a tourney if he as chance at taking a huge pot down early.

    i think this may be obvious but i'll say it anyway. a big stack can see more flops, just fold if it is unfavorable. they can also withstand more bad beats. you can play tight and build an average stack, but when that bad beat hits (and they will every tourney you play if you take 1st or 501st) you may find yourself out of the running.

    i like paradise's tourneys because they show where your chip stack ranks compared to the field. party doesn't do this and it drives me nuts. if i get a decent stack going or do loosen up or hit some nice hole cards and take down some big pots i like to know where i stand. if i get into the top 20 or so i like to stay there. i used to, and still do at times, find myself tightening up too much after building a stack and as the tourney moves on players shuffle on ahead of me because i am playing too tight after building the stack. seeing where i stand helps me to keep a pulse on the tempo and how tight/loose i should TRY to be. of course the cards play a big part in it, but you still need to get a feel for which gear you should be playing in.

    i agree with sexton. but there is much more to it then the simple statement you posted above. i also think sklansky is correct, it just doesn't apply all the time.

    you have to play your game, regardless of the cards. don't let the cards play the game for you and act as an innocent bystander along for the ride.

    my advice is for you to play some low buy in tourneys and mess around with playing loose. you sound like you have a good hold on how to play tight. learn the gears. mix it up. then when you find the right blend and your tempo fits with the tourney you are playing it will come together and i can assure you some decent results.

    anyway, just some of my thoughts. gl.
  8. Ollie79 Ollie79 is offline

    London
    United Kingdom

    Posts: 1,626
    Joined: Feb 05

    Mar 30th, 2005 (3/30/2005 6:01am) in reply to CUlater

    I think im slightly repeating what has been said earlier but I think that developing a style of play that does not rely entirely on the cards you are dealt is the only way to consistently win tournaments and reach final tables.

    To give an example I recently endured a stretch on Paradise of over 600 hands where the best hand i received was A,K which I got twice, and apart from this I got no higher pocket pair than 9s (these are actual figures not exagerrations!). During this time I was able to reach 3 final tables just by playing an aggressive style that I have developed over time and capitalising on opportunities when they arise. I then finally starting receiving cards and had pocket aces four times in yesterdays 20K R&A yet busted out 84th as they only held up twice, and was in fact eliminated on AA v QQ all in pre flop.

    The key thing to remember is that throughout any tournament there will always be opportunities that arise to either steal pots (e.g. when there is a 4 flush or 4 straight on the board and you sense weakness from your opponents) or to flop a monster with a relatively poor starting hand where you were able to see the flop cheaply. If you are simply playing tight and waiting for a top 4 hand you wouldn't have seen this flop with your 9,7 suited or whatever hand you may have been dealt.

    It is also easy to overemphasise how important and unbreakable these premium starting hands are whereas they are commonly beaten. If these are the only hands you are playing then you need to maximise what you win from them in each pot, and this is generally the case where hands such as A,A and the like get cracked by straights, 2pairs, sets and flushes.
  9. sophiea sophiea is offline

    Okemos, MI
    United States

    Posts: 304
    Joined: Feb 05

    Mar 30th, 2005 (3/30/2005 1:04pm) in reply to Ollie79

    I've tried all kinds of strategies from (1) patient and only play "premium" hands to (2) loose as a goose. In (1) you never get enough premium hands to win a tourney, and sometimes the premium hands get busted. This is especially true when you have a small stack and the large stacks can play against you. In (2) you are certain to run into premium hands that bust you. So, to win a tourney you must play position, solid cards but not always "premium" depending on the bets in front of you and # of players behind you. Make appropriate raises when you have a hand, or check raises if that is in your arsenal. Be able to let go of a losing hand, even if you "hit" your weak pair... (a mistake I make a lot)... and be lucky, because in order to win sometimes you will go into a hand the dog and need to catch some lucky cards. Poker is a brutal game and it takes a lot of careful, thoughtful play and luck to win a multi table tourney.
Reply to Thread

Similar Threads