Originally Posted by the_schmenx

4 pages and not one person has brought up position

doggystyle imo

i kinda feel like we may too shallow to flat, altho i think its close between that and jamming. ultimately i like a jam. flat is undoubtedly the 2nd best option tho

idk why u guys like jamming over just raising.. i feel like a weak ace will call a jam way more often than 3bet the flop all in and will even flat a raise and fold to most turns and jam will fold out weaker flush draws more often than they would 3bet shove the flop with. i like a raise to anywhere between 5-6k

why is he lead/folding a flush draw instead of check/jamming?

 

Originally Posted by pokerjamers

idk why u guys like jamming over just raising.. i feel like a weak ace will call a jam way more often than 3bet the flop all in and will even flat a raise and fold to most turns and jam will fold out weaker flush draws more often than they would 3bet shove the flop with. i like a raise to anywhere between 5-6k

ii dont think anyone with an ace is going to call a raise on the flop and check fold the turn if a blank hits. i feerl like the only turns they are folding are turns that give us a made hand.

 

Originally Posted by pokerjamers

idk why u guys like jamming over just raising.. i feel like a weak ace will call a jam way more often than 3bet the flop all in and will even flat a raise and fold to most turns and jam will fold out weaker flush draws more often than they would 3bet shove the flop with. i like a raise to anywhere between 5-6k

agree, definately dont like just shoving

 

Originally Posted by DFish

 

Originally Posted by the_schmenx

4 pages and not one person has brought up position

doggystyle imo

asian cowgirl tho

 

Originally Posted by pikappraider78

theres already about 7k in the pot after he leads the flop, so i just jam. obv anything but fold is not horrible, but jappola or w.e his name is (sorry dont feel like checking it) is dead on about this. its really important for us to win the pot. by raising small on the flop, we never get shoved on worse except for a smaller flush draw. and flatting and when we brick the turn puts us in a weird spot where were either checkign behind or shoving more then the pot. i prefer to jam and take down the 7k thats in the pot or get called by the ace and be flipping. if we were deeper and had like 25k or 30k i could see a flat on the flop being fine to try to induce turn bluff.

Hmm i definitely agree with the points you guys are making but i don't know if you consider his range and the potential loss of value by shoving possibly outweighing "the importance of winning the pot right there for 7k." I don't know if I agree that a fold for +7K or he calls and its a flip or he has a lower flush draw IS better than flatting based on the amount of times his line is a bluff and the fact that we are in position here. I think the situation is a bit too generalized and against certain opponents one of the plays is definitely right and one play is definitely wrong. I know against some people that line is just so much more often a bluff line making a call the easy play to gain more value. By the same token I feel many opponents that take that line do it with an A because it is somewhat unconventional/deceptive and arent folding so there's no point to force a flip to double IMO. I think these 2 scenarios out weigh the amount of times you get that A to fold and or the time you get max value by winning a flip or a lower flush draw hand to play. I think being in position and the line more "agro" players take in this spot make a flat optimal. If we had a little bit less or a bit more chips would change my decision but i know I have a different view on our stack size and need for the 7K in this spot.

i dont see how a flush draw is in this guys range almost ever...first id expect most to check/jam this flop with that or donk bet a lot smaller to jam over the raise. i dunno this size bet just never seems to be just a naked flush draw to me.

 

Originally Posted by DFish

 

Originally Posted by Frank1The1Tank

Definitely raise/call. I like around 5600ish. To those saying flat, that is absolutely ridiculous. You won't be getting many firsts if you play that tight. You flopped a monster draw, going into weak/tight mode will just result in chip bleeding. Pretty easy spot imo.

this is really narrow minded and you are clearly thinking about this the wrong way. the reason you would flat here is not to play the hand "weak" or "tight", but to get another street of value by shoving over a turn bet, because you think he either has air or a hand weak enough to fold to a raise, which will still be the case on the turn.

there is no wrong play with this hand on the flop other than folding.

DFish, I respect your game alot (which I'm sure you already knew). However, I'm sorry but you are wrong here imo. Unfortunately there are situations in poker where you must be narrow minded because there are only so few correct ways to play them. Flatting makes too many turn situations awkward and with significantly reduced equity when you do get it in. He could do something crazy like shove turn where we are no longer getting the right price to call, he could not bet the turn which eliminates our plan of shoving over his turn bet, thus making it really awkward for us to bet. I don't think flatting the flop can be bad but I strongly believe it is not optimal.

Idk if those are good enough reasons but I'm sure there are more: raising > shoving flop > flatting > folding imo.

P.S. I didn't read beyond page 2 of this thread so sorry if DFish corrected himself or if this was discussed already.