Unless you have a hidden webcam in every online player's house directed squarely at their face, your reading skills are limited in online poker. Gl tho!

If you have to ask these questions your kidding yourself, no offence. GL anyway.

unless ur playing insanely high stakes cash games and beating the game, u probably wont be able to make a living playing 2 tables at a time

to be successful at tournaments/sngs ur gona have to learn to multi table better. its a skill like everything else and if u work at it u will become better at it, start small, add in 1-2 tables at a time and play that many till u feel comfertable, rinse and repeat until u get better at multi tabling

keep playing live

[QUOTE=johnsovva_ap;5855838]Unless you have a hidden webcam in every online player's house directed squarely at their face, your reading skills are limited in online poker. Gl tho!

I disagree. You obtain most of your information about an opponent by his betting patterns, live or not.

 

Originally Posted by Mcschnucks

From my experience, the slightly larger field tourneys like the 90 and 180 mans seem to have a smaller % of regular grinders than say the $22 9 man sng's. with more chips in play U can use your edge more deep in those tournament as well to use advanced concepts to exploit these dynamics. both of these factors seem to lead to a higher % return on investment and more $ per hour.

As for pokertracker/HEM if you are planning on only playing 1 or 2 tables at a time, It will not be necessary to use these tracking tools as you will be capable of following the action fairly well yourself. But when 4+ tabling, u are dealing with many different opponents with new opponents coming and going all the time, and it can be a near impossible feat to keep track of all the players raising/calling/folding to steal ranges etc with your own memory. Pokertracker records all this information and displays it mathematically. such as your opponents preflop raise %, how often the voluntarily put chips in the pot, How often they reraise preflop. fold bb/sb to steal etc etc. All this information is extremely useful in defining hand ranges at a glance. Assume you raise AQs in mid-late position with a 23bb stack in a $22 tourney. you are playing 6 tables and have not had time to pay much attention to all the players tendencies. the button with a 30bb stack makes it 8.5bb to go. With pokertracker, you could figure out what would be the correct play assuming you have a large enough sample of hands played with the player to have a realistic idea of how loose/ tight he is.. so you see you have played 100 hands with him. he ahs voluntarily put chips in the pot 8% ( 8VP ) and his PR (preflop raise percentage) is just 2. you look further into his stats and see in the 100 hands he has not 3 bet once. This now becomes a clear fold, even though you have AQs as his hand range is pretty much JJ+/AKs+

Same scenario with a player with 100 hands and stats of 32vp/23pr and 6 preflop reraises already, the hand is suddenly a fairly clear shove. get your chips in and cross your fingers.. This explanation also explains how people can comfortably play many many tables at once.Experienced online poker players have played literally millions of hands and have came across literally every situation, vs. every type of player with virtually every type of stack size many times before, and came make decisions of what to do in every spot before they even happen. playing many tables at once really isnt that difficult for them. Although they dont play their 100% A-game when playing 12 tables at once, here is the thinking behind it...

Assuming a player is a strong sit n go player. He/she could play 1 sit n go at a time playing his/her absolute best game. they would probably manage 1 game an hor roughly.. and beat the game for a fairly huge ROI of 30%. so for a $10 sng, would make around $3 an hour. the same player, playing 10 tables, although not playing their best game, due to rushing some decisions, not taking sufficient notes on player tendencies and maybe making a few rash moves around the bubble. Could still beat the game for say a 10% ROI. the thing is.... although they're making 1/3 as much money per game, they can still make 80% Return on investment every hour 10 tabling, compared to 1 tabling. leaving the player making $8 an hour, playing the same stakes. This is why people choose to mass multi table. It seems to confuse you as to how people play so many tables, but trust me, its doable. I have spent some time 12-14 tabling 90 man sit n go's and micro stakes cash games before and shown a steady profit.As I write this I am 6 tabling mtt's(Although I dont advise this) lol

Really well written. Major props...

 

Originally Posted by johnsovva_ap

Unless you have a hidden webcam in every online player's house directed squarely at their face, your reading skills are limited in online poker. Gl tho!

Thanks for being a doucherbagger #1

 

Originally Posted by stang_racin

If you can only fit 2 tables comfortably on a 24" monitor, you're doing it wrong.

What resolution are you running ?

I use odds calculators when I'm playing, this could be why I can't fit more than two, I'm running at max resolution (1920*1200) I know most of the odds off the top of my head but I like to have that... Extra understanding, if that makes sense.

 

Originally Posted by elendil

If you have to ask these questions your kidding yourself, no offence. GL anyway.

Thanks for being a doucherbagger #2, I'm asking these questions so that I can move forward, people like you need to get your head out of your ass.

 

Originally Posted by okse54

unless ur playing insanely high stakes cash games and beating the game, u probably wont be able to make a living playing 2 tables at a time

to be successful at tournaments/sngs ur gona have to learn to multi table better. its a skill like everything else and if u work at it u will become better at it, start small, add in 1-2 tables at a time and play that many till u feel comfertable, rinse and repeat until u get better at multi tabling

Thank you for the help and information, this is what I planned but I had a few more questions to ask and they've been answered now. :)

 

Originally Posted by patthecat35

keep playing live

Clearly I don't want to do that, thus why I am here.

 

Originally Posted by Mcschnucks

From my experience, the slightly larger field tourneys like the 90 and 180 mans seem to have a smaller % of regular grinders than say the $22 9 man sng's. with more chips in play U can use your edge more deep in those tournament as well by using advanced concepts to exploit these dynamics in the deep stages when the money jumps are quite signifigant. both of these factors seem to lead to a higher % return on investment and more $ per hour.Also, I find the challenge of beating 90 players more entertaining than playing 6/9 man sng's all day. But thats just me.

As for pokertracker/HEM if you are planning on only playing 1 or 2 tables at a time, It will not be necessary to use these tracking tools as you will be capable of following the action fairly well yourself. But when 4+ tabling, u are dealing with many different opponents with new opponents coming and going all the time, and it can be a near impossible feat to keep track of all the players raising/calling/folding to steal ranges etc with just your own memory.

Pokertracker records all this information and displays it mathematically. such as your opponents preflop raise %, how often the voluntarily put chips in the pot, How often they reraise preflop. fold bb/sb to steal etc etc. All this information is extremely useful in defining hand ranges at a glance. Assume you raise AQo in mid-late position with a 23bb stack in a $22 tourney. you are playing 6 tables and have not had time to pay much attention to all the players tendencies. the button with a 30bb stack makes it 9.5bb to go. With pokertracker, you could figure out what would be the correct play assuming you have a large enough sample of hands played with the player to have a realistic idea of how loose/ tight he is.. so you see you have played 100 hands with him. he has voluntarily put chips in the pot 5% ( 8VP ) and his PR (preflop raise percentage) is just 2. you look further into his stats and see in the 100 hands he has not 3 bet once. This now becomes a clear fold, even though you have AQs his hand range is pretty much JJ+/AKs+ and may well be just flatting JJ pre.. so he has a HUGE edge against your AQo and you would prob be better off just dumping the hand.

Same scenario with a player with 100 hands and stats of 32vp/26pr and 6 preflop reraises already, the hand is suddenly a fairly clear shove. get your chips in and cross your fingers.. This explanation also explains how people can comfortably play many many tables at once. On top of having access to statistics like this,Experienced online poker players have played millions of hands and have came across literally every situation, vs. every type of player with virtually every type of stack size many times before, and can make decisions of what to do in every spot before they even happen. They may not all be necessarily the 100% optimal play in every situation, but the majority of them are relatively unexploitable and near optimal moves.playing many tables at once really isnt that difficult for them. Although they dont play their 100% A-game when playing 12 tables at once, (most anyway although there are some freaks out there)

So heres a pretty basic example (and please dont bother correcting me on how long these games take on avg. or whatever, or wether the ROI i suggest should be higher or lower, its just an example). assuming a player is a strong sit n go player. He/she could play 1 sit n go at a time playing his/her absolute best game. they would probably manage 1 game an hour roughly.. and beat the game for a fairly huge ROI of 30%. so for a $10 sng, would make around $3 an hour. the same player, playing 10 tables, although not playing their best game, due to rushing some decisions, not taking sufficient notes on player tendencies and maybe making a few rash moves around the bubble. Could still beat the game for say a 10% ROI. the thing is.... although they're making 1/3 as much money per game, they can still make 80% Return on investment every hour 10 tabling, compared to 30% 1 tabling. leaving the player making $8 an hour, playing the same stakes. This is why people choose to mass multi table. It seems to confuse you as to how people play so many tables, but trust me, its doable. I have spent some time 12-14 tabling 90 man sit n go's and micro stakes cash games before and shown a steady profit.As I write this I am 6 tabling mtt's(Although I dont advise this) lol

you may ask why dont they just play higher stakes and less tables , Thing is this same player may struggle to beat the $33 sit n go's for any amount. maybe they will only be able to mantain a 15% ROI at the $30 level as obviously the standard of play will generally be tougher at the higher stakes. so there they will make $4.50 an hour , and playing 10+ tables there, maybe they will even have a negative ROI and be losing money.. Variance will also be higher at the higher stakes as your downswings will be longer, leading to pretty huge losses over short periods of time whereas with a lower average buy in, and putting in more volume, your bankroll should be more controlled and you shouldnt experience such sharp spikes up and down. My advice in general.Play stakes ur comfortable playing at and play STRICTLY withing your bankroll (more important than playing great poker imo) get a tracker, and learn how to use all the %'s to your advantage. learn to play more tables, and keep building that bankroll.

Also. prepare yourself to run worse than you ever thought was humanly possible and try not to let bad runs interfere with your general happiness and how you treat people in day to day life. Take my word for it, At some point this game will feel like torture. proper torture.Real heartbreak, and pain. Try not to let it suck the life out of you when it happens, because if you put in enough volume, it will. No if's or buts...IT WILL HAPPEN (unless you bink the sunday million or something in your 1st week ofc)Above all else, have fun and make some $$$ :)- my 2 cents.

I really do appreciate an honest and well written post, I thought more of this website from all the posts I read before I joined, all the posters ahead of you don't seem to care about another individuals thoughts or what they are after but you handed me exactly what I asked for and I thank you for that, I'm going to take what you said and I'm going to roll with it, take my time and move ahead.

Where / What poker school do you recommend? I'm assuming you went to one online or did you find one locally?

[QUOTE=MorbidMentality;5855963]

 

Originally Posted by johnsovva_ap

I disagree. You obtain most of your information about an opponent by his betting patterns, live or not.

I understand that, all I was getting at is a persons tells are amazingly easy to read.

 

Originally Posted by fly44

1)- Its just a matter of playing versus bad players. Generally 1 table SNGs have less fish, and thus MTTSNGs have more fish and more money to be spread among the people who know what they are doing.

3)- People are able to play so many tables because they can figure stuff out quickly and come to a quick decision, then move on to the next table and make the next decision. Experience helps a lot with multitabling. I use two monitors, and put 12 tables on my big one while overlaping. Some people who play on a labtop stack all the tables and they pop up when you have a new action.

Overall, if you are asking these questions you are no where near close to 'making online poker a career'. I would read all that you can read and strategy forums and articles. Study the game and try and learn as much as possible. Joining a training site was probably what put me over the edge and able to make a living from poker so I would also recommend that.

I will try both HeM and PT3, thank you for another well written reply to my thread, I'll take what you said and put it to the test. :D

Regards,
6c

Don't listen to all the haters.

Look, if you're a winning player there's no reason not to take your shot online. All these guys will tell you about magic tools and hocus pocus internet kid math they use to make it, but the fact of the matter is that solid poker play is what's gonna bring in the dough.

IMO, go for it. If things go awry, you can move back to the casino for a bit.

Poker can not be a career for you anytime in the near feature judging by your posts thats just imo

 

Originally Posted by 6C 65 65 74

So I made a post here a few days ago and I don't think I covered exactly what I needed to move on, so I'm going to break it down a little bit and see if I can get some better answers.

Before I start asking questions I'm going to let you know that I understand a lot about poker, positions and game play, I have a lot to learn still as do many other people and I'm willing to learn but the main things I am currently wondering are"

1) From everything I have read here, people keep talking about MTT and SnG's as being the real money makers, so I'm wondering this... Why does everyone recommend the 45/90/180 or even the cheaper 4.40/10kgarunteed type of tournaments over things like a 9-18 SnG? Sure the payout of a 45/90/180 is worth more at the final table but your odds of winning on a smaller group would pay off more frequently, no?
First this site is a tournament site.. There is def money in ring games as well. There are 3 reasons I would recommend multi table sngs over 9mans. First is that playing 9mans only you will want to kill urself. The ROI in these have continued to decrease due to many players learning basic push fold. 9 mans can also be harder to have a ton of them running because you will be shorthanded on many tables at once. Where as with 45-180s u can load alot of tables and its all very basic abc poker in the early stages, and you are deep in fewer at a time. Basically you have more time to think about the correct play in the late stages, as early stage play should be automatic. Because you can play so many more at once, while getting a higher roi, your hourly rateis likely to be better in 45-180s. Lastly is that 45-180s help you in your transition to online mtts, as the end game play will be similar as in mtts as they are in in 45-180s.

2) I play poker in casinos all the time and I"m up a lot, I can read people fairly well while I rely on notes here to do that for me, I'm told that I should use "Hold'em Manager" if I want to be truly successful online, is this true? Do you all use odds calculators while in game? I'm currently using "Holdem Genius", should I be using this or not? IMO holdem manager and pt3 are only really uselful in ring games. I dont use odds calculators in the game. I will save hand histories and plug some numbers in a post session HH review, but not while im playing.

3) How do people play in 5+ Tournaments at the same time(With a calculator), more so how do people play 40+ in one day....? I can't seem to fit more than two at a time on my screen without making things super small and I have a 24" 1080P monitor. I have a 30 inch monitor now, but i used to 16 table on a 15" laptop and often have a website or 2 open as well while watcing football. Nowadays I take it a little more serious, but I still 16 table on FTP and am checking emails/fbook etc. Its called multitasking. If you cant do it then online will be tough to enough money to live off of. If you can only 2 table I would think live poker might offer you a better hourly rate (as players in a $100 tourney or 1/2nl would be like playing a $10 tourney or .25/.50 online)

I guess this is all I have for now, anyone that can answer some or all of these will get a response and I thank you very much for your time.

Regards,
6c

.

 

Originally Posted by 6C 65 65 74

1) From everything I have read here, people keep talking about MTT and SnG's as being the real money makers, so I'm wondering this... Why does everyone recommend the 45/90/180 or even the cheaper 4.40/10kgarunteed type of tournaments over things like a 9-18 SnG? Sure the payout of a 45/90/180 is worth more at the final table but your odds of winning on a smaller group would pay off more frequently, no?

A lot of this depends on what you want out of "online poker as a career".

If you want to grind out a very basic wage and don't have many outgoings in life and are looking for a few hundred bucks a week of reliable income then it is possible to get to the standard required fairly quickly beating 9/18 man Sng's at low/mid stakes as long as you can become comfortable multi tabling as mentioned.

The higher the field sizes you play against it is possible as has also been said to gain a higher ROI and obviously the prizes are greater but the variance gets greater also each time the field size numbers are increased. As a result of the variance increasing with larger field sizes it becomes a less reliable source of income even though in the long term you might be working towards a better ROI and greater profit , you could easily/probably will have sizable downswings but also weeks were you make 10x even 100x what you would playing 9/18 mans.

So if your aiming for very steady cash then sharpen your 9/18 man game up as much as possible , learn to multi table as much as possible and be prepared to monotonously grind your ass off for long long periods of time realising the profits can be steady if you become good enough but that profits are also very limited due to the dynamics of the games your playing and the amount of buy ins its possible to win per game.

Sure you can counter this by playing high stakes sng's to offer the chance of making a very sizable income but at the stage your at i wouldn't be considering this yet for the following reasons...

1: If your just setting out to play online as a career then i wouldn't imagine your rolled yet for the kind of stakes to make huge sums of money playing high stakes 9/18 mans.

2: Also if your just setting out on this path i can't imagine your game is up to speed to be crushing $200+ buy ins for example anytime in the near future.

3: The standard at these levels means expected ROI's would be massively reduced which is also going to start introducing higher variance.

Another thing to consider is if you need to cash out a steady amount for living off then even if you successfully grind these making for example $500 a week playing amazingly consistently , bankroll growth will be a real problem as you wont be hitting any huge scores and will need a lot of your profits to live on.
So going this route and wanting to progress you will need to come up with a good bankroll system based on your ROI that allows growth and the prospect to progress onto better things.

So even if you you become a consistent winning player at low/mid stakes 9/18 mans you could well end up caught in a rut of playing long long hours and never really progressing.

So if your looking for a very steady but limited source of income id say the 9/18 mans.

If on the other hand you don't need a steadier income source and only are concerned about the profit over much bigger sample sizes then you can aim at the larger field sizes.

These come into 2 brackets for me ....

On 1 hand you have the 45/90/180 man sngs and the other you have larger field multi table tourneys with guarentees.

The 45/90/180's are obviously in the middle and there are more game dynamics to consider for someone just starting out on online poker, by that i mean your going to need to have game skills to deal with many more situations than 9 man sngs so this kind of depends on where your game is at just now and how much effort your prepared to put in.
Any potential income from these will still be limited as your obviously not going to hit massive scores in these but its certainly not as limited as 9/18 mans and these will be a little less monotonous to play.

As for the larger multi table tourneys with guarantees etc....

Well to be very successful in these your game is going to need even more skill sets as obviously there will be many more types of situations to deal with and things to take into account.
Also variance will be much higher as the fields will be so much larger so if your looking for a steady weekly/monthly income then this probably isn't the route to take , if however your finances are such that your only looking at the long term picture then its possible to make much more money playing these and they are more stimulating as your not monotonously playing the same situations over and over again as you would in a 9/18 man sng.

As mentioned though to beat these tourneys your game will have to be up to speed on so many more levels than 9/18 mans and it could take a very long period of time before your game is at the level to tackle these games and expect large profits over a large sample size.

So basically taking your 3 options.....

1: 9/18 mans: Possible to grind out a living playing poker as a career and possible to do in the short term if you put the effort in but be prepared for long long hours and can become monotonous also income and bankroll growth are fairly limited.

2: 45/90/180's: IMO also possible and also in the short/mid term but will require more work on your game than 9/18's , also be prepared for long hours and although potential income is greater it is still limited.

3: Large multi tables: Unrealistic to expect a steady income if your just setting out , your will have to develop your game on many levels and not expect to be crushing these in the near future but working to a much longer term plan and be honest with yourself if your game is developing enough that you expect to beat these in the long term.
Having said this if you do manage to get your game up to speed for these the potential profits are much greater and they are more stimulating to play than a ton of 9/18 mans.

Whatever you decide to go for it's highly likely it will be much tougher than you expect from a standpoint of just starting out but it is also possible.

Sorry for the ramble but i was kind of thinking aloud as i've had a similar dilema recently.

I started out playing multis on stars in 2009 and had a pretty successful year but for one reason or other i got drawn to the steady income from sng's as i have a lot of responsabilities with a partner and 2 kids , i done as good as could be expected in the sngs at the levels i played churning out a very steady income and winning about 10-15 battle of the planet leaderboards but it basically feels like ive turned into a robot playing 12-15 hours a day doing the same crap over and over again and starting to dislike poker and hating the monotony so basically im going back to playing mostly MTTs and hope variance will be as gentle as possible with me :)

GL in whatever you go for.

marky

Where / What poker school do you recommend? I'm assuming you went to one online or did you find one locally?

play mainly on stars and tilt. Also a bit on UB. in order from toughest to weakest from my experience is 1. Stars 2. Full tilt 3. UB. Tilt is ever so slightly behind stars but UB is signiffigantly worse standard than the others. Although the problem here is their tourney selection is wayyy worse than the main 2, although the games they do offer generally have great structures. however, their software just isnt as good.

i 2nd what mathclub said.