This is a subject that has really been bothering me here lately. I am not going to post a hand atm as this will be a pretty general question. Lately i have been doing my best to apply pressure in optimal spots and optimal situations during mtt's. But i also feel that when making certian high varaince open shoves into the big blind/small blind from the button; Or into the big blind from the small. I really feel it is correct to think about your actual stack size compared to the villans actual stack size. Although it is a so called optimal/unexploitible push ect, and shows a profit in the long run. IMO i feel that some of these spots can be totally eliminated vs villans expected calling ranges ect; Especialy when shoving optimal/unexploitible will cost me 40-50% of my stack and fold equity late in mtt's.
I am sure that we have all been in spots late in mtt's where the avg stack size is 20-25bb's with blinds around 500/1000 100 antes or so. You are dealt for example sake(K9s,QJo,89s,T6s,22,A2o,J8s,KJo,A5s) on the button or in the small blind, with the action being folded to you.

Your stack 23000 (sb)
villans stack 10275 (BB) total pot(2400)

Let's also assume that the tournament has been running for 5 hours or so and you are 11th in chips with 29 player remaining Itm. Let's also make it perfectly clear that the 5 hours running time has nothing to do with a decision here. I only included it to give a simulation of time and game flow of a basic mtt situation. In this spot if you shove and the villan calls and you lose it will cost you(risk)exactly 44% of your stack. You will then have 12725 in chips with little or no fold equity; And therefore be limited to open shove situations only.
But when you win(reward) you chip up to 33,275 and 33 big blinds and add 44% in chips to your stack.
My point and question here is that imo i feel that making optimal pushes in these spots; Even though profitable in the long run are much better suited when the risk is not such a huge portion of our stack. I have no issues with making optimal pushes or shoves during the middle stages of mtts. Obv during the middle stages we are still attempting to build stack to make runs to the final table ect. And i will also assume that we are still making chip +cEV shoves during the middle stages as well. But there has to be a point where pushing +cEV has to be -$EV once avg stack sizes reach a certain point in tournaments or we are down to the final 4 or 5 tables or so. To my knowledge i always have had an understanding the ICM based shoves or more suited for final table situations. And because of this i will no make comments or assume anything that is ICM based as my knowlege of it is limited to sng play.
Obv i could have also presented the math for the situation above and entered a few calling ranges for villan ect. But i feel that the question i am asking is pretty clear! It seems to me that passing some high varaince pushes late in mtt's should be considered. If in the same situation above with a 30+ bb stack, and making an optimal/unexpliotible. Atleast in this situation we are left wit 28bb's or so with about the same options and tools with our remaining chips. I personally feel that i have been taking too many high varaince spots like this late in mtt's without considering; Where and what i will be able to do if i lose when i shove! I would love to hear some info and opinions please!

Thanks Will

"mommy i want to be a beast at the table when i grow up"

I wanted to write something similar, but it was too much effort. Nice post Manch.

I'd also add if you're thinking about passing up +cEV shove spots deep in tournaments it likely means your opponents are passing up marginal/good spots where they should be calling off. If they are doing that, shoving wider than is "optimal" is profitable, which means not shoving at least the optimal range is passing up on a lot of good spots.

I mean if its folded to me in the sb and we're ~10bb effective I'm shoving an even wider range than you have posted there-essentially any two. Unless it is a competant known reg in the bb, you can expect that the villian just isn't going to be calling down properly (ie they'll be folding a lot of hands they should be snapping with) and this means you should be shoving even wider than what might be "correct" as you have even more fe than you should.

And let's say it is a good known reg in the bb. At this point you should be asking yourself how they view you. How are they likely to view your shove? I mean most good regs, if they dont know you, are going to assume you are just a bad/mediocre random and even they might assign a tighter calling range figuring that you aren't competant enough to be jamming atc. This is a finer point but one still worth considering when you think about these situations.

Esp as Manch stated in Mergeaments with the shitty structures there just isn't room to be passing on +cEV spots. The crappier structure kinda makes it more necessary to push every small edge that you have.

 

Originally Posted by tyson219

I wanted to write something similar, but it was too much effort. Nice post Manch.

I'd also add if you're thinking about passing up +cEV shove spots deep in tournaments it likely means your opponents are passing up marginal/good spots where they should be calling off. If they are doing that, shoving wider than is "optimal" is profitable, which means not shoving at least the optimal range is passing up on a lot of good spots.

This. Great post Manch and good point Tyson

EastSaint stand up!!!! I think the guys covered it pretty well, I would jus like to add that a 12bb/shove still has a bunch of fold equity and risk vs reward, which is the title of ur post could be based on the prize pool of the tourney, if up top is only a couple hundo, im shoving a wide range in late position, as i would only be playing for first...glgl bruh keep grinding 314-618

 

Originally Posted by nosucout325

EastSaint stand up!!!! I think the guys covered it pretty well, I would jus like to add that a 12bb/shove still has a bunch of fold equity and risk vs reward, which is the title of ur post could be based on the prize pool of the tourney, if up top is only a couple hundo, im shoving a wide range in late position, as i would only be playing for first...glgl bruh keep grinding 314-618

Also this was a very basic post and iam looking into it further to get more info on certain situations. Obv it's very vaugue the way i presented it here;But i will attempt to be more certain when i refer to a certain spot in the future!!!