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Maxamize profit in $ games: Value bet or check the nuts

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  1. nagle107 nagle107 is offline

    Houston, TX
    United States

    Posts: 257
    Joined: Sep 05

    Jul 25th, 2006 (7/25/2006 12:45pm)

    The tilt article got me thinking. Yesterday I went on a little tilt when I had the nuts and my value bet didn't get called. I know this is a very generic questions and it depends on the player, the action thus far, stacks etc, but does anyone have any tips, tricks and/or guidelines on what to do to extract the most value when you are first to act after the river and are fairly certain you have the best hand. I know this is very general and it always depends. I just feel that this is a hole in my cash game and any advice would be appreciated. I can handle bad beats well, It is harder for me to handle what I feel is missed oppurtunity.
  2. nagle107 nagle107 is offline

    Houston, TX
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    Jul 25th, 2006 (7/25/2006 3:03pm) in reply to nagle107

    Any thoughts?
    Thread Starter
  3. slavik slavik is offline

    Wollongong
    Australia

    Posts: 139
    Joined: Jul 06

    Jul 25th, 2006 (7/25/2006 3:07pm) in reply to nagle107

    I like to check/fold
  4. nagle107 nagle107 is offline

    Houston, TX
    United States

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    Jul 25th, 2006 (7/25/2006 4:33pm) in reply to slavik

    Interesting Slavik. Anyone else?
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  5. JoePo JoePo is offline

    Royal Oak, MI
    United States

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    Jul 25th, 2006 (7/25/2006 5:14pm) in reply to nagle107

    Push all in and type in the chat:

    "You call, gonna be all over, baby."
     
  6. MileHighKid MileHighKid is offline

    Arvada, CO
    United States

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    Joined: Jul 05

    Jul 25th, 2006 (7/25/2006 5:15pm) in reply to nagle107

    I think it depends on who's in the pot with you, the texture of the board, and the strength of your hand. Here's some general guidelines I go by though.

    Your question is more on the river though I think. If I've seen the other player in the pot bluff on the river then I'm going to check with the intent to check raise them. If I've seen them call value bets on the river or just check behind I'll go ahead and bet out and hope they call my bet. I'm making a smallish bet (1/4 to 1/3 of pot) with the hopes that it looks like a weak steal and they call or better yet raise me. But typically if it's gotten to the river with little action don't expect to win a whole lot here. Nobody probably has much of anything unless they are on a major slow play in which case you'll win a big pot.

    If I'm playing live I will talk it up like I'm over showing my strength. Most people equate showing strength with weakness and I get alot of calls and people actually say that too "Strength means weakness" and they call right after that.
  7. BadAndy BadAndy is offline

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    Jul 25th, 2006 (7/25/2006 5:53pm) in reply to nagle107

    Don't value bet... make a bet that looks like a total bluff.
  8. nagle107 nagle107 is offline

    Houston, TX
    United States

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    Jul 25th, 2006 (7/25/2006 6:09pm) in reply to BadAndy

    I know you may be being sarcastic, but I think although you may induce calls overtime you may lose value always overbetting the nuts on the river.

    If it is a new opponent and you don't have much information and you get the nuts on the first few hands how often are good players going to check the river and hope for the opponenet to bet? I know it depends but are good players doing this 25% of the time 45%, 10%. Just trying to get some berings. Thanks for replying
    Thread Starter
  9. CFH101 CFH101 is offline

    Massapequa, NY
    United States

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    Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 9:42am) in reply to nagle107

    hey nagle , most of what MileHighKid said is very good info . If I could add anything it would be ....... ask yourself two questions - 1) is my opponent aggresive enough to bet if I check. You have to get a feel for the player , so chking the nuts at the beginning of a session prob isint worth it. You can chk with very good hands like sets, etc ( which arent the nuts ) on the river and see what that particular opponent does. Now if he bets, you'll know that this is the type to chk the nuts to later on. ( most of the time with sets I like to keep firing, but
    its strong enough of a hand to chk the riv and induce a bluff-bet )

    2) How did the hand play out? and what does he think you have ? These questions , to me , are much more important than the first one.
    Ex : you flop nut flush draw. If there were 2 opponents in the hand with me I probaly would lead with it. Lets say both call and the flush comes on turn . I'll lead out for less now , to make it look like I;m not to happy with that card. Hopefully I get raised, but even if I dont - I've set up the hand for the river check. The way the hand played out , he'll more than likely try to represent it himself, assuming that I dont have it .

    *** Also , realize that when you chk the nuts and it gets chked around -- thats not always a bad thing . Yes, you missed an opportunity ...... but that missed opportunity helps you with marginal hands at showdown later on. Your opponents have seen you chk the nuts on the end , so they will not always be inclined to bet when you chk , fearing that you've laid another trap.
    This lets you sometimes get to showdown with 2nd pair, or top pr and weak kicker -- where if you didnt chk the nuts earlier , you're more likely to have to face a decsision on the riv with a marginal , but sometimes winning hand. Hope I've helped .......

    GL on the felt ........
  10. xcalibur1120 xcalibur1120 is offline

    Helena, AL
    United States

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    Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 2:00pm) in reply to nagle107

    Nags, Basicly when I am <span>out of position</span> with the nuts, I'll check a straight on the river (about 30%) of the time and other times, I will value bet it (i.e. about 40-60% of the pot). If I have a nut flush, I rarely check it and almost always value bet it. The reason why is that flushes are pretty obvious and straights are more easily disguised and a player may try to make a value bet of his own on the river on a non flush board whereas he may just be inclined to check behind you since "Well, I could bet my KQ (pair of queens), but he did call me all the way and I think he only calls if I'm beat....so there's plenty out there so I check." But like MHK said above, this could allow you get you're mediocre hands (pocket JJ on a KQXXX board) checked down any maybe pick up the pot.

    The only time I overbet is when I make a full house and the board pairs top pair on turn or rvr (ex. I have 99 and board is 9Q34Q), I will overber the river since in a cash game, most players here can't throw away trip Qs and it is his/her most likely holding.

    Another play I like to make is a when I get a hand like 99 and a flop of 92K. My play here is to usually bet about 1/2 the pot on the flop, a 3/4 size bet on turn (provivded no scare cards come) then under bet the river to give the late postion player a chance to bluff at it. It looks like you have missed a draw (AX or something like QT) when in reality, this could be his holding. In addtion, you may get a raise from a player playing something like KQ that has a decent hand and thinks you missed your draw.

    These are all plays from out of postion that I use to try to extract max value. If I am in position with the nuts, I ALWAYS value bet (40-60% of pot) to get a call.
  11. nagle107 nagle107 is offline

    Houston, TX
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    Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 2:45pm) in reply to xcalibur1120

    That was just the kind of advice I was looking for,
    thanks X, Cfh and mhk
    Thread Starter
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