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Mid pocket pairs: 20-30BB

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  1. Limo Wreck Limo Wreck is offline

    Fullerton, CA
    United States

    Posts: 1,003
    Joined: Jun 07

    Jun 4th, 2010 (6/4/2010 5:23am)

    So this is prob my biggest leak, I think. Overplaying mid pairs 77-TT w/ 20-30BB stack. I don't think it's profitable to set mine so I tend to just ship the money in. Is this wrong? Here's an example:

    Full Tilt Poker Game #21350739028: The Fifty-Fifty (161404225), Table 53 - 120/240 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:51:29 ET - 2010/06/03
    Seat 1: cashinnow111 (3,925)
    Seat 2: dznutz161 (7,642)
    Seat 3: Crisp86 (3,200)
    Seat 4: Stockoption4 (4,045)
    Seat 5: bowser125 (6,370)
    Seat 6: lilfishy897 (3,976)
    Seat 7: gobleegooblee (14,855)
    Seat 8: BigHuddy (5,315)
    Seat 9: Limo Wreck (6,082)
    cashinnow111 antes 25
    dznutz161 antes 25
    Crisp86 antes 25
    Stockoption4 antes 25
    bowser125 antes 25
    lilfishy897 antes 25
    gobleegooblee antes 25
    BigHuddy antes 25
    Limo Wreck antes 25
    BigHuddy posts the small blind of 120
    Limo Wreck posts the big blind of 240
    The button is in seat #7
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Limo Wreck [8s 8d]
    cashinnow111 has 15 seconds left to act
    cashinnow111 folds
    dznutz161 raises to 720
    Crisp86 folds
    Stockoption4 folds
    bowser125 folds
    lilfishy897 folds
    gobleegooblee folds
    BigHuddy folds
    Limo Wreck has 15 seconds left to act
    Limo Wreck raises to 6,057, and is all in
    dznutz161 calls 5,337
    Limo Wreck shows [8s 8d]
    dznutz161 shows [Jc Jd]
    *** FLOP *** [7h 2s 5c]
    *** TURN *** [7h 2s 5c] [9c]
    *** RIVER *** [7h 2s 5c 9c] [3h]
    Limo Wreck shows a pair of Eights
    dznutz161 shows a pair of Jacks
    dznutz161 wins the pot (12,459) with a pair of Jacks
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 12,459 | Rake 0
    Board: [7h 2s 5c 9c 3h]
    Seat 1: cashinnow111 folded before the Flop
    Seat 2: dznutz161 showed [Jc Jd] and won (12,459) with a pair of Jacks
    Seat 3: Crisp86 folded before the Flop
    Seat 4: Stockoption4 folded before the Flop
    Seat 5: bowser125 folded before the Flop
    Seat 6: lilfishy897 folded before the Flop
    Seat 7: gobleegooblee (button) folded before the Flop
    Seat 8: BigHuddy (small blind) folded before the Flop
    Seat 9: Limo Wreck (big blind) showed [8s 8d] and lost with a pair of Eights

    My thinking is, I'm going to fold out a lot of his broadway coinflipping range, I'm going to be racing AK a lot, dominated some, and ahead some, but it's high variance. Is there a better way to play? I considered on this specific hand flat calling and donking safe flops, but then I have to fold to shoves. Doesn't seem that good either. This is my biggest road block right now.

    Please if you comment provide a thought process, short answers aren't useful.
    Edited By: Limo Wreck Jun 4th, 2010 at 05:25 AM
  2. ndahlhoff10 ndahlhoff10 is offline

    MI
    United States

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    Jun 4th, 2010 (6/4/2010 5:28am) in reply to Limo Wreck

    I personally much pf without a read. Probably jamming 99+, AQ+
     
  3. Donnie2005.2 Donnie2005.2 is offline

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    Jun 4th, 2010 (6/4/2010 5:31am) in reply to ndahlhoff10

    This raise is coming from a player sitting in EP, so I think we really have to give him credit for some sort of hand. Obv the worst he's showing up with here is AQ and the obv AK. I actually dont mind flatting since it looks like your sitting in the big blind, so why not set mine here? Really easy fold postflop when we dont hit our 8, but I think we also have to be willing to fold flopped draws- we're ONLY going for the 8 here.

    By shoving we're getting called by 99+ AQ/AK, and the occasional donk AJ, but thats the very very bottom of someones raise/calling range imo. Shoving here is definitely not a good play at all. The raises from speculative hands like 78s and JQs here are going to fold, so shoving is just pushing out the only real hands that dont have us beat preflop. (this + we have to factor in that the original raiser started with 31 bbs- this guy shouldnt be raising odd hands from EP) Folding isnt terrible, but I'm def still ok with flatting for our 8. When we miss we're still left with 22 bbs, and thats definitely a stack we can still play with imo
    Edited By: Donnie2005.2 Jun 4th, 2010 at 05:35 AM
     
  4. GutShotBen GutShotBen is offline

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    Jun 4th, 2010 (6/4/2010 5:32am) in reply to ndahlhoff10

     
    Originally Posted by ndahlhoff10 View Post

    I personally much pf without a read. Probably jamming 99+, AQ+

    i like this
     
  5. Limo Wreck Limo Wreck is offline

    Fullerton, CA
    United States

    Posts: 1,003
    Joined: Jun 07

    Jun 4th, 2010 (6/4/2010 5:32am) in reply to ndahlhoff10

    New to table no reads on this hand.
    Thread Starter
  6. OneTime_10 OneTime_10 is offline

    Chicago, IL
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    Jun 4th, 2010 (6/4/2010 5:39am) in reply to Limo Wreck

    If you plan on continuing with this hand then you should be 3bet/calling and not open shoving, you have too much to be open shoving and he is never calling worse pairs or hands you dominate when he calls. When called you are basically hoping to see AK, and even there your still a small favorite. When you just open jam this stack his calling range is probably like JJ+,AQs,AK and maybe a tiny bit wider depending on the player. If you had a 12-17 bb stack then you would be more inclined to just open shove b/c his calling range is much wider against that stacksize anyway. But with this particular stacksize, by 3bet/calling you allow your opponent to widen their 4betting range making your 88 play better.
    Edited By: OneTime_10 Jun 4th, 2010 at 05:53 AM
     
  7. Limo Wreck Limo Wreck is offline

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    Jun 4th, 2010 (6/4/2010 6:12am) in reply to OneTime_10

    Thanks for the thoughtful replies guys.

    OneTime do you think that's better than folding or set mining. Personally I think set mining is not going to be profitable as I'm going to have to fold a lot when I'm ahead and stacks aren't deep enough to have good implied odds when I hit.

    Maybe a smallish 3bet that looks like it will fold to a shove. I just don't like folding quality hands when I'm playing to win. But maybe folding is best and wait for a better spot.
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  8. darkhawk-200 darkhawk-200 is offline

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    Jun 4th, 2010 (6/4/2010 6:25am) in reply to OneTime_10

     
    Originally Posted by OneTime_10 View Post

    If you plan on continuing with this hand then you should be 3bet/calling and not open shoving, you have too much to be open shoving and he is never calling worse pairs or hands you dominate when he calls. When called you are basically hoping to see AK, and even there your still a small favorite. When you just open jam this stack his calling range is probably like JJ+,AQs,AK and maybe a tiny bit wider depending on the player. If you had a 12-17 bb stack then you would be more inclined to just open shove b/c his calling range is much wider against that stacksize anyway. But with this particular stacksize, by 3bet/calling you allow your opponent to widen their 4betting range making your 88 play better.

    it's not gonna make much of a difference, if anything this is worse. He might call lighter against a shove than 4bet u light since he's opening 3x utg, it makes little sense for you to bet 3bet/folding to him, so why would he 4bet u light. By 3betting with the appearance of f/e, you make your hand look too strong. And if u get flatted, with 88's and oop. U r gonna hate life.

    Also in this particular spot, I don't even mind folding
     1
  9. Limo Wreck Limo Wreck is offline

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    Jun 4th, 2010 (6/4/2010 6:32am) in reply to darkhawk-200

    Part of the reason for my shove was to rep AK, which I think is going to get called by hands that I dominate enough to balance the times that I'm dominated. Also, it helps to eliminate tricky decisions post flop. I'm not saying it's right, just the thoughts I had.
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  10. OneTime_10 OneTime_10 is offline

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    Jun 4th, 2010 (6/4/2010 6:46am) in reply to darkhawk-200

     
    Originally Posted by darkhawk-200 View Post

    it's not gonna make much of a difference, if anything this is worse. He might call lighter against a shove than 4bet u light since he's opening 3x utg, it makes little sense for you to bet 3bet/folding to him, so why would he 4bet u light. By 3betting with the appearance of f/e, you make your hand look too strong. And if u get flatted, with 88's and oop. U r gonna hate life.

    Also in this particular spot, I don't even mind folding

    I never said I did not like folding. I said "If you plan on continuing with this hand, then 3bet/calling is better than shoving." Maybe how I explained it was a little off but theres no way that shoving>3bet/calling.
    Edited By: OneTime_10 Jun 4th, 2010 at 06:51 AM
     
  11. jeppg1111 jeppg1111 is offline Disabled account

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    Jun 4th, 2010 (6/4/2010 6:48am) in reply to Limo Wreck

     
    Originally Posted by Limo Wreck View Post

    Part of the reason for my shove was to rep AK, which I think is going to get called by hands that I dominate enough to balance the times that I'm dominated. Also, it helps to eliminate tricky decisions post flop. I'm not saying it's right, just the thoughts I had.

    why arent we shoving every hand then??? but ya dude, this dude potted from EP, with ur stack wedging here is a big leak IMO with 88. just fold here, then its on to the next one
     
  12. Limo Wreck Limo Wreck is offline

    Fullerton, CA
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    Posts: 1,003
    Joined: Jun 07

    Jun 4th, 2010 (6/4/2010 6:56am) in reply to jeppg1111

    I'm really thinking, yes folding here is the best option. Not profitable, but the least unprofitable. I have enough chips to wait for better spots.

    Thanks guys.
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