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Moon questions Kopp's Play

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  1. Blu SeVenZ Blu SeVenZ is offline

    CA
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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 2:15pm) in reply to BigRed0000

     
    Originally Posted by BigRed0000 View Post

    Actually, you're wrong.
    <INPUT id=gwProxy type=hidden><INPUT id=jsProxy onclick=jsCall(); type=hidden>

    Very well said.
    Good point.
    You make a good argument.
  2. Neek Neek is offline

    Boca Raton, FL
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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 2:18pm) in reply to BigRed0000

    I wouldn't say he's wrong per se. You do have to tailor your game to the specific opponents that you are sitting with. A major skill in poker is recognizing that. You don't play a $2+.20 the same way you would play the $100 rebuy because the opponents are completely different. In deciding what kind of play you are going to make in a given hand, probably the most important consideration is who are you playing against. Playing the same way against a virtual unknown as you would vs. the consensus "best player in the game" can be a gigantic mistake.

    This isn't a knock on Billy. He's obviously a fantastic poker player. But it's a mistake to play a hand vs. a player as if he were someone that he isn't.
     
  3. Blu SeVenZ Blu SeVenZ is offline

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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 2:25pm) in reply to Neek

    Bottom line it's just dumb to try some crazy 7th level move on a player you have no reads on and just hope that they respond the way you want them to. That goes for any tournament vs any player. Especially this one.
    Why assume they're on ur level and risk UR life??
  4. FireworKKing FireworKKing is offline

    Portland, OR
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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 2:38pm) in reply to BHudson

    1 answer to this all.RED Head! (explains everything)
    Retarded
    Ewwwww
    Dumb
    Hot.......Noooooot
    Evil
    Ambiguous(big word ,google it)
    Deformity
     
  5. wavegoodbye wavegoodbye is offline

    Acme
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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 3:08pm) in reply to BHudson

    the biggest mistake in the hand seems to be the size of the turn bet... checking or just betting like 1 mirrion prob saves him...
  6. Kreuznagel Kreuznagel is offline Banned Troll

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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 3:41pm) in reply to pikappraider78

     
    Originally Posted by pikappraider78 View Post

    im not friends with billy nor have i ever met him. i never said that billy played the hand well either, i definetly would have taken a different line. tbh in that spot as nitty as it sounds id just bet fold. but anyways alls i said is that moon played it worse. theres aboslutly no chance calling a 3b shove on the turn in that spot with a flush is a profitable play. atleast billy had fold equity and was the one shoving.... darvin moon called off in a spot where he just got so lucky to run into the bottom of billys range. i think if moon had the ace high flush it would be a tough spot but not even having the nut flush there and in that spot you gotta fold after getting shoved on when your a straight forward player who is showing ridic strength.

    Oldest amateur rule in the game... When someone is showing "ridic strenght" they might actually be rather weak... Ask yourself the question: What kind of hand you DON'T beat shoves in that spot?
  7. gamble153 gamble153 is offline

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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 3:42pm) in reply to wavegoodbye

    is it obv to anyone else that the 3 bet shove on the turn was transparent and moon knew his flush had to be good?(snap called) afterall if the small blind c/r me and if i did have a hand that beat the 2nd nut flush(full house or nut flush) I am definitley letting him hang himself on the river. Kopp is obv a gr8 player just made one huge mistake. Not the end of the world.
  8. darkhawk-200 darkhawk-200 is offline

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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 3:55pm) in reply to EddieO

     
    Originally Posted by EddieO View Post

    Bill says..."He has to fold all flushes to me including the nut flush" So he decides to turn his hand into a complete bluff which means he would have made the exact same play with any 2 cards running an insane bluff on the chip leader who he has no reads on on the final table bubble and this is profitable?...and this is how he defends his play without admitting to any error in hindsight?

    moon is a typical fish. He doesn't have much in the ability of reads or poker knowledge. For example the hand where he could have trapped Antonio's Jacks when he had KK, instead he isolated to 5 million.

    His level of thinking is very basic. He has some plays in his arsenal, but he has no understanding of why to do them or why they work.

    He doesn't understand pot odds, implied odds as shown by his flat with 88's against Jordan Smith.

    Billy Kopp, is a multi-level thinker, but he makes the typical flaw that many advanced players make, which is thinking too far ahead of his opponent.

    Remember the article by Deebs on levels of thinking? He thought too far ahead of Moon. This is show by "he has to fold any flush to me, even the nut flush." Moon does not understand what Kopp is repping by shoving the turn. So Kopp's read is bad even though he is the far better player.

    In essence Kopp made a deadly error by giving Moon too much credit in a ridiculously important situation.

    The point is, a better poker player's edge against a fish is not in any one hand, but better decisions over the long run. I made the same argument against SCTROJANS in his sunday million hand.

    It is far better to wait for better spots and to grind down a weaker opponent instead of trying to do it in one hand. Better poker players like to think they have opponent tendencies completely narrowed and in complete control and it's just not the case. Also top players are too stuck on the concept of optimal play which is required in top competition whereas exploitative play against fishes is far superior.

    Anyone who defends Kopp's shove are just incapable of admitting that he made a mistake against a weaker players. Just like in any one hand, in the game itself, there were better lines to take to optimize his advantage than getting it in for 100b and your tournament on the FT bubble with a small flush on a paired board against a guy whose never gonna call with worse.
     1
  9. DUBZX DUBZX is offline

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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 5:12pm) in reply to BHudson

    there is one problem with kopp saying he made right play and turned his hand into a bluff

    if he turned his hand into a bluff and darvin calls, shouldnt he expect to lose??????
    he threw his hand down like he just won the main event and then was really suprised when moon showed his hand.

    i mean his reasoning for the play is fine whatever, but his actions seem to look like the complete opposite of his reasoning
  10. rivercats rivercats is offline

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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 6:15pm) in reply to BHudson

    Darvin just raped him.

    Watchin the video Kopp looked suprised to see that Moon had a higher flush, if moon snapped calls doesn't kopp just instantly know that he is beat
  11. Kreuznagel Kreuznagel is offline Banned Troll

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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 6:21pm) in reply to darkhawk-200

     
    Originally Posted by darkhawk-200 View Post

    Billy Kopp, is a multi-level thinker, but he makes the typical flaw that many advanced players make, which is thinking too far ahead of his opponent.

    Remember the article by Deebs on levels of thinking? He thought too far ahead of Moon. This is show by "he has to fold any flush to me, even the nut flush." Moon does not understand what Kopp is repping by shoving the turn. So Kopp's read is bad even though he is the far better player.

    In essence Kopp made a deadly error by giving Moon too much credit in a ridiculously important situation.

    Pretty much exactly what I was saying/trying to say a few posts ago, agreed completely.
    Plus, Kopp's shove pretty much makes it impossible he himself has a full boat.
  12. RevG RevG is offline

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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 6:28pm) in reply to BHudson

    After you cut through all the bullshit nth level analysis and alleged levels...
    What happened is...

    Moon and Kopp both flopped flushes.
    Neither player was willing to fold a flopped flush in a HU pot.
    Kopp was unlucky to have had the smaller flush vs one of the only opponents that could bust him.
    gg
  13. rivercats rivercats is offline

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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 6:38pm) in reply to RevG

     
    Originally Posted by RevG View Post


    After you cut through all the bullshit nth level analysis and alleged levels...
    What happened is...

    Moon and Kopp both flopped flushes.
    Neither player was willing to fold a flopped flush in a HU pot.
    Kopp was unlucky to have had the smaller flush vs one of the only opponents that could bust him.
    gg

    ya all that crap about how Kopp was representing a full house is bs, despite the exuses and story telling he makes up. kopp thought he had the best hand, he just made a common mistake every poker player makes which is overplaying hands in some critical situations
  14. BudmansCom BudmansCom is offline

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    Nov 5th, 2009 (11/5/2009 6:50pm) in reply to BHudson

    So little has been said (that I can see) about the fact that Moon claims/admits that he didn't know the board paired.

    Poker News article
    One could only guess if Moon still would have called had he realized such.

    (Not to say I disagree with prevailing notion that Kopp's play was poor.)
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