I had about 50 hands at the table when this bvb hand occurred, but nothing of note with villain. Villain was active on the table, but I really didn't have a solid read and did not recognize him. His OPR revealed winnings over 100k (ABI $37) but a low ROI. His name hints at being a vamoo but his country of origin was Scandanavian. He had a 100bb stack relatively early in a very well structured tournament. I felt comfortable putting him in the LAG category, with an emphasis on the agressive part.

[SIZE=3]pokerstars Game #58009129659: Tournament #407010577, $50+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (200/400) - 2011/02/20 18:25:46 ET[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Table '407010577 311' 9-max Seat #8 is the button[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Seat 1: s.l. halper (11921 in chips) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Seat 2: nickname1985 (9478 in chips) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Seat 3: Wontips (16893 in chips) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Seat 4: F3dOrOv9191 (24020 in chips) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Seat 5: WildCardWebs (5131 in chips) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Seat 6: unarchj (21578 in chips) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Seat 7: AJTTMAR (16477 in chips) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Seat 8: JochenCash (13066 in chips) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Seat 9: dirty.brasil (40545 in chips) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]s.l. halper: posts the ante 50[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]nickname1985: posts the ante 50[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Wontips: posts the ante 50[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]F3dOrOv9191: posts the ante 50[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]WildCardWebs: posts the ante 50[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]unarchj: posts the ante 50[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]AJTTMAR: posts the ante 50[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]JochenCash: posts the ante 50[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]dirty.brasil: posts the ante 50[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]dirty.brasil: posts small blind 200[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]s.l. halper: posts big blind 400[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]*** HOLE CARDS ***[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Dealt to s.l. halper [9d Ad][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]nickname1985: folds [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Wontips: folds [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]F3dOrOv9191: folds [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]WildCardWebs: folds [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]unarchj: folds [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]AJTTMAR: folds [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]JochenCash: folds [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]dirty.brasil: raises 600 to 1000[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]s.l. halper: calls 600[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]*** FLOP *** [Ah Th Tc][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]dirty.brasil: bets 1300[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]s.l. halper: calls 1300[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]*** TURN *** [Ah Th Tc] [5s][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]dirty.brasil: checks [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]s.l. halper: checks [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]*** RIVER *** [Ah Th Tc 5s] [Js][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]dirty.brasil: checks [/SIZE]
s.l. halper: ?

Thoughts on all streets are welcome, and I'll give you my pertinent thoughts as well. Pre-flop, I felt more comfortable flatting in position than 3-betting because I did not want to either call a shove or fold to one. The flop is a standard flat spot to me, and I assumed that the check on the turn meant villain had some sort of showdown value or gave up so I really had no interest in betting the turn either. Villain's river check was surprising as I figured he'd grab at value even if he had worse and bluff if he had total air.

What is our river plan and why? Check behind? Bet and how much? Are we bet/folding or bet/calling? I mean I start the hand with less than 30 bigs but it is the DEG and its delicious combo of bad play and deep structure, so I'm not as willing to be risky as usual.

i m shoving pre; the pot is about 1/6 of our stack, what are we waiting 4; its bvb
as played, i like flop and turn play and i bet river for 1/2 pot but honestly, i m lost if he check shoves river lol
i should prolly be folding to a check shove

3b call pre.
as played value bet river

btw nvr folding river if he check jams here

 

Originally Posted by apology7

3b call pre.
as played value bet river

btw nvr folding river if he check jams here

explain plz

I'm not folding because the line he took doesn't make any sense for someone trying to get value from his hand.

Suppose he has an ace. It's understandable that he checks the turn for pot control. If he has a weak ace he will likely even check the river. AQ, AK type hands likely lead the river for value but they never check raise on a paired board.

If villain flopped a 10 I see no reason why he would check back the turn when it's now likely that your range includes an ace. If he does check the turn for deception he should be value betting the river because a ton of your range checks behind for showdown.

IMO, the only made hand that makes sense given his actions is pocket jacks. He should still be value betting the river hear because often times you will be checking behind weak aces and he has no reason to believe you will call a check-raise.

I really feel like villain is just spazzing trying to push you off of something because you have shown little strength throughout the hand. In his mind you virtually never check behind trips on the turn and your river value bet could just mean top pair or busted flush draw.

I could very well be wrong, and I'm not thrilled to get it in because I do think he may show up with a full house or trips a decent amount of the time - but I don't think it's enough of the time for me to lay down my hand to such an odd and polarized line. Plus, he's from Brazil.

This was a pretty surprising result.

First, I do play this much faster in a typical small/midstakes tourney. I'm 3-bet/calling against this type of villain and never giving it a second thought. However the Sunday DEG plays like an FTOPS/SCOOP type tourney and I played it conservatively and don't mind disagreeing about it.

Otherwise, I saw it almost identically to Apology (thanks for spending the time man). I never expected villain to play a better ace this oddly and would be shocked if villain ever tabled a ten or better. So I bet intending to call shove and snapcalled when he did...

[SIZE=3]*** RIVER *** [Ah Th Tc 5s] [Js][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]dirty.brasil: checks [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]s.l. halper: bets 2400[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]dirty.brasil: raises 35795 to 38195 and is all-in[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]s.l. halper: calls 7171 and is all-in[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Uncalled bet (28624) returned to dirty.brasil[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]*** SHOW DOWN ***[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]dirty.brasil: shows [Ts Kh] (three of a kind, Tens)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]s.l. halper: shows [9d Ad] (two pair, Aces and Tens)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]dirty.brasil collected 24192 from pot[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]s.l. halper finished the tournament in 1650th place[/SIZE]

oops....:)

Thx again for the responses.

 

Originally Posted by apology7

I'm not folding because the line he took doesn't make any sense for someone trying to get value from his hand.

Suppose he has an ace. It's understandable that he checks the turn for pot control. If he has a weak ace he will likely even check the river. AQ, AK type hands likely lead the river for value but they never check raise on a paired board.

If villain flopped a 10 I see no reason why he would check back the turn when it's now likely that your range includes an ace. If he does check the turn for deception he should be value betting the river because a ton of your range checks behind for showdown.

IMO, the only made hand that makes sense given his actions is pocket jacks. He should still be value betting the river hear because often times you will be checking behind weak aces and he has no reason to believe you will call a check-raise.

I really feel like villain is just spazzing trying to push you off of something because you have shown little strength throughout the hand. In his mind you virtually never check behind trips on the turn and your river value bet could just mean top pair or busted flush draw.

I could very well be wrong, and I'm not thrilled to get it in because I do think he may show up with a full house or trips a decent amount of the time - but I don't think it's enough of the time for me to lay down my hand to such an odd and polarized line. Plus, he's from Brazil.

appreciate the great explanation. def makes a lot of sense. i only asked tho, because i just usually dont give randoms enough credit here to use the same kinda thought process that u discussed. i feel like therss a very small percentage of players out there who are willing to risk their whole stack on a bluff here and most likely is just some trappy random. very interesting yet common spot tho, surprised not to see more discusion

 

Originally Posted by Gags30

you played it fine...bet the river now

seems like a real easy fold if he jams...idk how people can say call here. i mean, his line is odd...but 99.9% of people never have one bluff in their range here

you could 3b/call pre if you think the guy's gonna tool...flatting is fine too

im with this guy