this morning, before starting the saturday grind, i told my roommate that i'm officially done calling check raises on the river from mtt players. i spent a few years playing mostly hu cash, and in this venue there are lots of rivers. it's often correct to bet/fold rivers with good hands, and against other opponents bet/call rivers with second pair. that is to say, people c/r river in hu cash A LOT as a bluff. as ive switched into almost all mtts (always dabbled but now actually trying to win) i have seen almost no river c/r bluffs. those that i have been have been from fish. clearly im not saying it never happens, but i started playing daily mtts last december i have seen remarkably few. for the first couple of months i was bet/snapping rivers when i was betting for value, like i had done in cash, and was getting ownnned. toay i did this:


pokerstars Game #60575975733: Tournament #415010002, $300+$20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2011/04/09 13:49:32 CT [2011/04/09 14:49:32 ET]
Table '415010002 5' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: olala no (8975 in chips)
Seat 2: as1025 (4030 in chips)
Seat 3: sn5555 (9248 in chips)
Seat 4: iliadivilia (2877 in chips)
Seat 5: ryanbluf (1159 in chips)
Seat 6: THAY3R (6979 in chips)
Seat 7: RuberbandMan (6553 in chips)
Seat 8: Buffett1986 (4877 in chips)
Seat 9: Betudontbet (8275 in chips)
THAY3R: posts small blind 100
RuberbandMan: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Betudontbet [Ah Jd]
Buffett1986: folds
Betudontbet: raises 200 to 400
olala no: folds
as1025: folds
sn5555: folds
iliadivilia: folds
ryanbluf: folds
THAY3R: folds
RuberbandMan: calls 200
*** FLOP *** [3s Th 7d]
RuberbandMan: checks
Betudontbet: bets 400
RuberbandMan: calls 400
*** TURN *** [3s Th 7d] [Ac]
RuberbandMan: checks
Betudontbet: bets 600
RuberbandMan: calls 600
*** RIVER *** [3s Th 7d Ac] [Kc]
RuberbandMan: checks
Betudontbet: bets 1800
RuberbandMan: raises 3353 to 5153 and is all-in
Betudontbet: folds
Uncalled bet (3353) returned to RuberbandMan
RuberbandMan collected 6500 from pot
RuberbandMan: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6500 | Rake 0
Board [3s Th 7d Ac Kc]
Seat 1: olala no folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: as1025 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: sn5555 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: iliadivilia folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ryanbluf (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: THAY3R (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: RuberbandMan (big blind) collected (6500)
Seat 8: Buffett1986 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Betudontbet folded on the River

talked some with demaci later and he feels like in mtts river c/r are almost never a bluff, but deep in tourneys you see it some. he also said he doesent think most regs bet 3 streets here with my hand! i found this a little surprising i think its an obvious spot to go for turn and river value. but i think lots of you do check turn the more i think about it. how many think turn and river are both bets? i considered checking river partially bc im not calling c/r on river today jay kay
not asking anyone to come out and say oh i do it all the time or whatever, but was wondering what other peoples experiences have been with c/r rivers from regs and/or nonregs.

word,
betudontbet

I think that as in all ambiguous, complex questions asking for a yes/no answer the answer is it depends... For a while I used to give no mtt players credit for c/ring rivers for value because it required a.) them to think i have a hand thats strong enough to value bet and b.) them to have a hand thats strong enough to c/r my hand for value. Therefore, the very nature of river c/rs is obviously almost always going to be an extremely narrow range. So, I suppose the answer is, how credibly can they have that extremely narrow range they are repping? Also, some guys just don't have a river c/r bluff in them, the same way alot of regs don't have a river overbet bluff in their repertoire.

For a while though I never believed river c/rs whatsoever and would do stuff as crazy as bet/calling middle pair for value on rivers versus certain opponents. It definitely blew up in my face a ton and I realized that some regs (and fish) c/r rivers for value with their nut hands even when it makes no sense to check river. That being said, as someone who clicked call nearly every time someone c/red me on the river for a while I can say with some certainty that regs don't "always" have it. And that your observations come from a somewhat small sample size. That being said, I had to revise my opinion on river c/r's a bit and realize that mtt regs do in fact have it a decent amount in these spots.

So yea, in conclusion whether or not you should call depends on a.) villains sickness b.) what they are repping and if they can actually have many combos of it and c.) how they got to river which ties into B I suppose. I think there are too many different board textures and situations to get a definitive answer but you're a cash game player, you know that....

And yea, a ton of mtt regs check back that turn and play for "pot control" but I also think a ton of mtts regs suck at getting value and at balancing their bluffs. I would probably bet turn in this spot, but bigger, I think your turn bet makes your hand face up and you would definitely bluff bigger. Also, I would most like bet/fold turn depending on how stubborn I was feeling that day. On river I'd check back simply because I dont expect him to call with worse often enough.. the only worse aces are A2, A4-A6, and A8 and A9 and I'm not even sure those hands call pre-flop. I think not betting because you don't know how to handle a c/r is pretty weak, but versus a tough enough opponent is valid I suppose.

If I were villain in this hand holding say.... JTs, I would 100 percent call a big turn bet since everyone loves to bet this card, but never call a river bet after you checked back turn. Therefore I like a turn bet here, but I alot of regs seem to only bet this turn if they have 2 pair + or air...

Arguably I may not check back enough turns and go for too much value. I think the best reasons for checking back turns are 1.) to get river value versus bluffy/floaty opponents 2.) to underrep your hand (which ties into value) 3.) if you're unsure of the strength of your opponents hand and believe you'll only be able to get 2 streets of value anyway (which is where pot control comes in) and 4.) if you think a turn bet won't be called but a river bet will be. Pot controlling for the sake of pot control is just being overly cautious and not hand reading very well in my opinion.

So yea in this spot, I don't think you can expect to get more than 2 streets of value often, but I think there is more value in betting turn (but bigger). As played I think I like river fold, he has no reason to think you're folding. In this spot, I believe a river c/r is super credible. Looks like he check called a set on a dry board, and then the board ran out perfectly for you to continue betting so he kept tarping... Although I would expect most players to have just gotten it in on the turn with sets...


Also yea, maybe you are betting too many turns too thinly having a hu cash background. I think you just gotta realize that peoples preflop hand strengths are way stronger, therefore you can't get near as much value post. I don't think, however, that you should start playing weak bet/check/bet lines with all of your tpgk hands like most regs do.

/ramble

Ape is pretty much dead on, post less strat :)

great post ape... not much more to say I think you nailed it.

I think this hand is well played with the exception of betting a little more on turn as others have said.

What do you guys think of the river action?? I thought it was a pretty standard bet at 1st glance, but after thinking about it its pretty hard to think of many villain hands we beat that are calling the river here. However c/f and c/c both seem pretty bad... and I agree you will very rarely be bluffraised here... so maybe a smaller bet on riv is best?

 

Originally Posted by edc5036

great post ape... not much more to say I think you nailed it.

I think this hand is well played with the exception of betting a little more on turn as others have said.

What do you guys think of the river action?? I thought it was a pretty standard bet at 1st glance, but after thinking about it its pretty hard to think of many villain hands we beat that are calling the river here. However c/f and c/c both seem pretty bad... and I agree you will very rarely be bluffraised here... so maybe a smaller bet on riv is best?

I think if you start betting smaller on rivers, then you open yourself up to being c/r light by good players. Your hand is kinda face up and non nutted. I think it could be effective vs straight forward opponents, but anyone that is capable is gonna exploit you.

Bet bigger on turn. River is ok but I wouldn't bet it vs rubberbandman or any reg as tight as him. They just don't really hero call that often so you mostly only get called by better. Also as for river c/r's, hu cash is significantly different than a full ring mtt. I haven't read apes post yet so maybe he touches on this but: In HU cash, players are good for the most part and go for extremely thin value very frequently and merge a ton. Mtters on the other hand are for the most part, not good at poker. They go for thin value in awful spots because they aren't strong hand readers. But more importantly they don't go for thin value nearly as often. In addition most mtt regs have an AF of around 1.5 even if they raise something like 20/18 at full ring. They cbet once and give up so often. I'd bet there are a decent amount of mtt regs who go an entire sunday without triple barrel bluffing. (It's funniest when those types try to make overbets on the river and I have a decision with the 2nd nuts whether I should call or fold). All of this creates a constant environment of not really being able to c/r bluff the river so people don't do it often. If someone isn't bluffing often/ever and doesn't go for thin value that often, and is also a station as most mtters are that is the perfect storm to not c/r bluff rivers.

 

Originally Posted by weavel

ape is rly smart. keep talkin strat no one can stay with you anyway. totally agree ryan about the neccisity of occasionally value towning yourself. his line is nutted i guess, but to me it looks polarized with mostly nuts. like if im supposed to fold AJ on this riv, why cant he turn tons of low pairs and nonesense flop floats into bluffs on riv proffitably. why do i always think people are trying to own me when they are just playing nice? at what point do i call? im not folding at or ak right? its not the same exact as AJ here for sure bc he can c/r for value as light as Kt ithink but if hes never bluffing...people please start c/r riv as bluffs so you can do it wider for value..im getting tired of being wrong every time i call

not sure about this -- I mean if you have AT/AK, is he really going C/R worse two pair on the river? Dunno what % of the time the C/R is a bluff but it has to be a multiple of the # of times he C/R the river for value with KT or the like.