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Is my calling range too tight?

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  1. headnick headnick is offline

    Posts: 109
    Joined: Nov 07

    Aug 30th, 2011 (8/30/2011 3:38am)

    I was in a tourney last night and this hand went down...

    stars $75 buy in $12.k guarantee turbo

    Blinds 1000/2000 ante 200 (pot 4400)

    BTN hero: $19.5k AJs shoves pre

    BB Villain: $23k KQos calls

    Admittedly I was fairly actively raising Pre (PFR% was around 25% at this point), as was the villain who had also called off a few shoves fairly light previously, so I knew I could only shove on him with a fairly tight range. I am trying not to be results focused here as I lose this hand and was knocked out, however I am trying to understand if his call was +EV? I mean, his hand is obviously good to shove with but to actually call off 84% of your stack with KQos surely isn't mathematically correct is it?

    If his call based on the situation is correct I am assuming my calling range against a similar opponent is too tight (as I would not call here), which is obviously -EV and is an area of my game I need to work on.

    Your thoughts and/or mathematical solutions would be very much appreciated.
    Edited By: headnick Aug 30th, 2011 at 04:24 AM
  2. rivverkiller rivverkiller is online now

    White Rock
    Canada

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    Aug 30th, 2011 (8/30/2011 3:49am) in reply to headnick

    What is your shoving range on the button? With 10bbs you can profitably shove any 2 cards in that spot. KQ is obviously a favourite vs any 2 cards. Even the nittiest of players will still be shoving 50% of hands and KQ is a favourite vs that range


    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

    12,102,564,672 games 8.578 secs 1,410,884,200 games/sec

    Board:
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 55.697% 54.14% 01.55% 6552898992 187826592.00 { KQo }
    Hand 1: 44.303% 42.75% 01.55% 5174012496 187826592.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o }


    ---
     
  3. boneralert boneralert is online now

    Fort Worth, TX
    United States

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    Aug 30th, 2011 (8/30/2011 4:08am) in reply to rivverkiller

    Consider also that this is a turbo and you really cant pass up spots in turbos. It's a standard call for him, but even if it were more borderline you have to think he makes it as opposed to letting the blinds and antes grind him down.

    The question you might ask yourself is 'is my shoving range too tight?' If you're unsure if his KQ is a good call, then perhaps you aren't assuming a very wide shove range from the button. As river said, you should be shoving most if not all of your hands here.
  4. headnick headnick is offline

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    Aug 30th, 2011 (8/30/2011 4:21am) in reply to boneralert

    Thanks for the responses guys, but correct me if I am wrong, isn't better to be the aggressor preflop rather than the caller? And isn't it better to take down the blinds / antes without a contest?

    Believe me, I was happy to get my money in against his guy with AJ, but considering the table was fairly fold-happy (we were on a pay-jump bubble I'm sorry I didn't mention) there really wasn't a reason for him to look me up in this spot because if I wasn't taking the blinds he certainly was.

    Boner, my shoving range I believe is wide enough, I mean I wasn't shoving ATC at this point but I was shoving anything that "connected" if I was first in (J7,K9,Q8etc).

    River, do you mind explaining the Pokerstove stats as I am not familiar with the software, does the math state a call by the villain is in fact correct?
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  5. rivverkiller rivverkiller is online now

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    Aug 30th, 2011 (8/30/2011 5:51am) in reply to headnick

     
    Originally Posted by headnick View Post

    Thanks for the responses guys, but correct me if I am wrong, isn't better to be the aggressor preflop rather than the caller? And isn't it better to take down the blinds / antes without a contest?

    Believe me, I was happy to get my money in against his guy with AJ, but considering the table was fairly fold-happy (we were on a pay-jump bubble I'm sorry I didn't mention) there really wasn't a reason for him to look me up in this spot because if I wasn't taking the blinds he certainly was.

    Boner, my shoving range I believe is wide enough, I mean I wasn't shoving ATC at this point but I was shoving anything that "connected" if I was first in (J7,K9,Q8etc).

    River, do you mind explaining the Pokerstove stats as I am not familiar with the software, does the math state a call by the villain is in fact correct?

    Basically even if you are shoving a tight range he still has 55.6% equity vs that range. He's calling 17500 to win 23300 (assuming it's 9 handed) so he only needs 43% equity to breakeven.
    Edited By: rivverkiller Aug 30th, 2011 at 05:55 AM
     
  6. headnick headnick is offline

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    Aug 30th, 2011 (8/30/2011 7:07am) in reply to rivverkiller

     
    Originally Posted by rivverkiller View Post

    Basically even if you are shoving a tight range he still has 55.6% equity vs that range. He's calling 17500 to win 23300 (assuming it's 9 handed) so he only needs 43% equity to breakeven.

    The table was 7 handed as we were down to the last 19... does this mean he has even more equity than your calculations?
    Thread Starter
  7. matze_widi matze_widi is offline

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    Aug 30th, 2011 (8/30/2011 1:35pm) in reply to rivverkiller

     
    Originally Posted by rivverkiller View Post

    What is your shoving range on the button? With 10bbs you can profitably shove any 2 cards in that spot. KQ is obviously a favourite vs any 2 cards. Even the nittiest of players will still be shoving 50% of hands and KQ is a favourite vs that range

    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

    12,102,564,672 games 8.578 secs 1,410,884,200 games/sec

    Board:
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 55.697% 54.14% 01.55% 6552898992 187826592.00 { KQo }
    Hand 1: 44.303% 42.75% 01.55% 5174012496 187826592.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o }

    ---

    obv u dont/cant shove any 2 here profitable, but we do shvoe a lot of hands and KQo plays very well against that range as your Stove results shows
     
  8. rivverkiller rivverkiller is online now

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    Aug 30th, 2011 (8/30/2011 6:06pm) in reply to matze_widi

     
    Originally Posted by matze_widi View Post

    obv u dont/cant shove any 2 here profitable, but we do shvoe a lot of hands and KQo plays very well against that range as your Stove results shows

    You have 9.5 bbs on the button...you don't even have to look at your cards for it to be a profitable shove
     
  9. gjallen1975 gjallen1975 is offline

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    Aug 30th, 2011 (8/30/2011 6:57pm) in reply to rivverkiller

    seems on the bottom end of what's profitable. he's pretty much neutral chip EV against all your underpairs, not so hot against your aces, and murdering your kings, so during shorthanded play, the rights privileges that come with that bully stack make his call profitable, even w/o any fold equity. As short as everybody is (what was chip average at time?), he doesn't have an edge on the field and needs this pot to get his edge.
    Edited By: gjallen1975 Aug 30th, 2011 at 06:58 PM
  10. headnick headnick is offline

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    Aug 31st, 2011 (8/31/2011 6:12am) in reply to gjallen1975

     
    Originally Posted by gjallen1975 View Post

    (what was chip average at time?).

    Average stack was $25k...

    Fellas, I understand the math now thank-you, however without thinking mathematically, isn't the villain better off waiting for his own chance to shove with basically ATC for blinds and antes rather than calling off his stack and at best flipping with KQ?

    I mean, as I stated earlier the dynamics of the table were in our favour as we were winning plenty of blinds and antes without a contest (which further justifies his call I know), so there really isn't a need here for him to call. I just need to know his line of thinking or is there no line and he has made the call on pure math?
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  11. boneralert boneralert is online now

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    Aug 31st, 2011 (8/31/2011 6:21am) in reply to headnick

     
    Originally Posted by headnick View Post

    Average stack was $25k...

    Fellas, I understand the math now thank-you, however without thinking mathematically, isn't the villain better off waiting for his own chance to shove with basically ATC for blinds and antes rather than calling off his stack and at best flipping with KQ?

    I mean, as I stated earlier the dynamics of the table were in our favour as we were winning plenty of blinds and antes without a contest (which further justifies his call I know), so there really isn't a need here for him to call. I just need to know his line of thinking or is there no line and he has made the call on pure math?

    For one thing, the notion of waiting for a better spot is somewhat constrained in a turbo format. The villain may have passed up some opportunities before and this was his 'better spot'.

    And I think we've established that the villain wasn't at best flipping here. AJ is near the very top of your range. The villain thinks he is (and usually will be) ahead of many of the hands in your shoving range, so it's a call he will make virtually every time.

    Of course table dynamics do factor in, but when the blinds are high in fast structure tournaments, there is less and less room to play the players and you have to pretty much devolve into an unexploitable push/fold game.
    Edited By: boneralert Aug 31st, 2011 at 06:22 AM
  12. Lenail Lenail is offline

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    Aug 31st, 2011 (8/31/2011 6:43am) in reply to rivverkiller

    Without doing any math, i guess 22+, A2+, K6+, Q8+, J9+ and wider if the villain is tight seems to do it..
  13. djdoodoo djdoodoo is offline

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    Aug 31st, 2011 (8/31/2011 2:08pm) in reply to Lenail

    That is a profitable call when you know the person is shoving most hands.
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