i didn't read the whole "taking the plunge" thread... but i skimmed most and here is my take... if anyone cares...

i agree partially with nsxt...you have to have NO negativity, you need a more than adequate bankroll, you need to keep good records of everything... these are for sure...

however.. he says not to worry about how KJo does from the cutoff, etc...meaning no more stats are needed to be kept than money management.... i think this is completely wrong....

to become a better player, you need to be a student of the game. you should keep stats using pokertracker..it isnt hard and i see no reason why more information about your game wouldn't help you (if it doesn't help you...ie confuses you, throws you off your game, etc... then you aren't cut out for this game in the first place so it's better you figure that out now). after tracking my last 40,000 hands or so i KNOW where i am making my money...

once you see your stats... review them once a week or so... get a feel for what things usually look like and look for any deviations from the norm...look for hands where you are losing the most... review those hands... figure out why... for me it was suited connectors... i fell in love with them and was too loose (too much calling in my case) with them.. i noticed this and have tried to adjust accordingly...this is just one example...

you need to do what nsxt says.... be positive...always....but you need to always be thinking about your game and trying to improve it...

bottom line is... few will succeed... that i am sure of...that being said... the best way to succeed is..(assuming you are already a good player) to combine supreme confidence with a passion for improving your game in any way you can.

if anyone would like to discuss this with me i'd be glad to share more thoughts... i have a lot of them on this topic actually.

taylor

Ya, I completely agree with GP. I keep very close stats as many of you know and it's a very important part of playing poker.

I also agree that negativity is a bad thing and you should stay positive. I think people are misinterpreting the comments that nip/tuck and myself have made as being negative.

Excellently put.

I am a player that plays with a ton of 'feel.' I agree that in NL psychology is extremely important. It is not as important as a fundamental understanding of the game (which I am guessing for this argument sake we are assuming everyone has...which is fine). Using statistics from your past play can improve your fundamental understanding of the game...agreed?

That being said, the more information you know about your game, the better you can apply advanced psychology of poker to your game. (not to mention....stats help you analyze other peoples game....i have thousands of hands i have reviewed of my toughest opponents)

simple question... two players are equally good at the 'psychology' of poker... ie they both are great at analyzing other players' emotional state, playing off their own table image, etc....but one player is more of a student of the game...ie...studies past hand histories, statistics, situations, etc.... which player is going to be better in the long run? i contend that although psychology may be one of the single most important factors to being successful, keeping track of your statistics and analyzing them periodically will improve your game as well. for this reason i think if you want to be as good as you can be... you should always be reviewing statistics of your play.

taylor

Interesting discussion...just shows there are many ways to beat the poker beast. But if you are quiting your job..and you were not already consistently making enough money playing poker to live on for a number of years, then you better at least start by keeping all the records and listen to all the pros and read all you can.

Once you are experienced, you can dispense with whatever you don't need.

I agree that stats from Poker Tracker et al are MORE valuable in ring than tourneys, but I find PT stats very valuable in tourneys as well. For example, if I know a tourney player plays 30% of hands, I have a range of hands to put him on. If he raises in ep and I have TT on the button, I can pretty confidently reraise this guy and he probably folds. If on the other hand, PT tells me he only plays 10% of hands, I call there and probably fold if I miss my set. The psychological aspect (table image), chip stacks and how far into the tourney we are all play into all these decisions as well of course. However PT is just another 'tool' in a good online players toolbox and to ignore it is quite foolhardy IMHO. And the above example is just one very small example of the use of PT stats. The data is so rich that you can go into much more depth and really study someone in detail if you wish to. Why would you NOT want to do this if you can find an advantage you can exploit?

Unless it is with the same players every time, yes it is. It is a big difference if the Blinds are tight or loose, no? NXST is saying that you can't factor table image and psychology using stats. BUt stats will show you leaks in your game.

I think that GP's point also fits into your Marquis at a Roulette table analogy, in that after reviewing 40,000 spins, you'll find (obviously) that no matter how you play red/black/even/odd/, the house always has a 6% spread edge (actually, how many numbers are there on a wheel? -- two green's I know). Of course simple probability theory can tell you this, just as it can tell you your chances of winning any given hand in poker, so no stat tracker is necessary. But, what standard probability theory can't really tell you is how many times you bluff with certain hands, and how successful that bluff is over the long run against specific or general ranges of oponents. A stats tracker can tell you that (e.g. GP and his point about his play of suited connectors). So, while I agree it is important, as NSXT2 does well to remind us, to play each hand on an individual basis, stats can be important in judging how the reads we make on similar situations over time will pan out in the long run.

In my straight job as a musician (rough, eh?) I often have run into people suggesting that learning music theory "ruins your feel." I disagree in that context and this, as well. Knowledge never hurts. Even if going over your stats weekly does nothing but keep you thinking adn concentrating on the game, then it is an exercise worth doing.