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My toughest spot in Memory

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  1. Cmac Cmac is offline

    Gainesville, FL
    United States

    Posts: 2,344
    Joined: Jul 05

    Sep 19th, 2007 (9/19/2007 11:20pm)

    I put him on a TJ hh or so to begin w/ but then he thought a while and shoved the river when it brought a flush and paired. Both of us are deep stacked. It is like the second hand after the rebuy period and I think I am a top 20 stack with 1400 left. What are your thoughts on this call? It is so obvious in hindsight. I think I would have folded the Q hi flush, I just couldn't get away from the nut flush because i could have been shoving a lower flush...F ME

    pokerstars Game #12158224229: Tournament #61173102, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2007/09/19 - 23:08:10 (ET)
    Table '61173102 47' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
    Seat 1: Kol-Ur-Bluf (10702 in chips)
    Seat 2: smuve (2950 in chips)
    Seat 3: ffaggiani (6650 in chips)
    Seat 4: Mr Law11 (10316 in chips)
    Seat 5: Mephisto9979 (7705 in chips)
    Seat 6: BOOOOOZE (24268 in chips)
    Seat 7: MrOtto2 (18530 in chips)
    Seat 8: KES 29 (7550 in chips)
    Seat 9: Bballmike222 (11375 in chips)
    Kol-Ur-Bluf: posts small blind 75
    smuve: posts big blind 150
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to BOOOOOZE [9h Kh]
    ffaggiani: folds
    Mr Law11: folds
    Mephisto9979: folds
    BOOOOOZE: calls 150
    MrOtto2: folds
    KES 29: folds
    Bballmike222: folds
    Kol-Ur-Bluf: calls 75
    smuve: checks
    *** FLOP *** [Qc 4h Ah]
    Kol-Ur-Bluf: checks
    smuve: checks
    BOOOOOZE: bets 300
    Kol-Ur-Bluf: calls 300
    smuve: folds
    *** TURN *** [Qc 4h Ah] [7d]
    Mephisto9979 said, "kes has his game face on"
    Kol-Ur-Bluf: checks
    BOOOOOZE: bets 900
    Kol-Ur-Bluf: raises 900 to 1800
    BOOOOOZE: calls 900
    *** RIVER *** [Qc 4h Ah 7d] [Qh]
    Kol-Ur-Bluf: bets 8250
    BOOOOOZE: raises 8250 to 16500
    Kol-Ur-Bluf: calls 202 and is all-in
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    BOOOOOZE: shows [9h Kh] (a flush, Ace high)
    Kol-Ur-Bluf: shows [7h 7s] (a full house, Sevens full of Queens)
    Kol-Ur-Bluf collected 21554 from pot
    BOOOOOZE said, "fn knew it"
    BOOOOOZE said, "dflasdjfldj"
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 21554 | Rake 0
    Board [Qc 4h Ah 7d Qh]
    Seat 1: Kol-Ur-Bluf (small blind) showed [7h 7s] and won (21554) with a full house, Sevens full of Queens
    Seat 2: smuve (big blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 3: ffaggiani folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: Mr Law11 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: Mephisto9979 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: BOOOOOZE showed [9h Kh] and lost with a flush, Ace high
    Seat 7: MrOtto2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: KES 29 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: Bballmike222 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
  2. TheDo TheDo is offline

    Fredericksburg, VA
    United States

    Posts: 210
    Joined: Nov 06

    Sep 20th, 2007 (9/20/2007 12:04am) in reply to Cmac

    Here's my take on the these kind of shove situations, which i liken also to having the flush hit on the turn when you're way ahead on the flop, and they check the turn, then lead out the river with a shove.

    They are hoping you will make the call much more often then they are bluffing.

    Your situation is tough cause you have the nut flush, but it aint the nutz after the river.

    I think (and I'm not calling you one at all) is a move used by mediocre to good players who are used to playing with donks. They don't value bet it, cause they figure, and possibly correctly, that it is +ev to shove there because they find they get called a good percentage of the time. And they hope their shove looks fishy, when in reality it's a valuebet when they get called frequently.

    I have recently stopped ever calling in these situations, unless i have a good read on the player and have seen them do similar things in non similar situations, or have seen them showdown less than the nutz.

    Basicly, either they are a donk or they are thinking you are. So unless I know something about them, I probably fold and try to rebuild rather than find a new tourney.

    EDIT: As for this hand in particular, the turn min raise call by him could have been an indication you were beat when the board paired. Also, your minraise is what got you into the situation on the river. If you are going to try to max value the hand, you have to have an idea of what you are going to do on the river if a scare card comes, in this instance, the board pairing.

    I know you said you though he was on 10Jhh, but you have got to open up your range of hands that could call your minraise on the turn to include pps that have made a set. If you want to avoid these river situations, you have to raise much more on the turn to try to end the hand. You may not win as large a pot, but you avoid these situations on the river that will either cost you the pot + some on the river, or the pot + lots on the river, or just having to fold the river when scare card comes.

    I think that depends on the stage of the tourney and your stack size. In your case, early and healthy. I think you should have tried to take it down on the turn with a large bet. He may still call, and the result may not change, but I think you could feel like he made a mistake and you did all you could, instead of having to anguish over the river crying call and the result.
  3. Cmac Cmac is offline

    Gainesville, FL
    United States

    Posts: 2,344
    Joined: Jul 05

    Sep 20th, 2007 (9/20/2007 1:27am) in reply to TheDo

    Great response and def makes sense. I totally agree with this :

    I think (and I'm not calling you one at all) is a move used by mediocre to good players who are used to playing with donks. They don't value bet it, cause they figure, and possibly correctly, that it is +ev to shove there because they find they get called a good percentage of the time. And they hope their shove looks fishy, when in reality it's a valuebet when they get called frequently.

    I also agree with you that the problem started w/ my minraise. If he does have TJ hh and I raise more he either folds, or I am forced to call w/ a draw. If he has a hand like he had same result. I feel like min raises and overshoves are the two online reads you need to get on an opponent, because they usually remain consistent with the player.
    Thread Starter
  4. milesaway86 milesaway86 is offline

    Lansdale, PA
    United States

    Posts: 12
    Joined: Nov 06

    Sep 20th, 2007 (9/20/2007 1:41am) in reply to Cmac

    dont go broke in a limped pot. raiseeeee.... or fold.
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