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I was watching the UB 1K tonight and at the final table and HU there were some spots where I was a bit confused and was wondering if some of you guys could clear up the thought process.
This first hand isn't too crazy, but I guess he just puts him on Ax or even worse? I feel like if he had Ax nova would just call for value or fold not raise.
Stage #1762860723 Tourney ID 4441983 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit 2,000 - 2009-07-09 02:22:32 (ET)
Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer
Seat 1 - DODGEK (16,974 in chips)
Seat 2 - N0VASKY (246,936 in chips)
Seat 5 - TERMINATORTOO (46,122 in chips)
Seat 6 - LEON_BLACK (132,576 in chips)
Seat 8 - WISCOMURRAY (127,930 in chips)
Seat 9 - LUCKYFKR (59,462 in chips)
DODGEK - Ante 200
N0VASKY - Ante 200
TERMINATORTOO - Ante 200
LEON_BLACK - Ante 200
WISCOMURRAY - Ante 200
LUCKYFKR - Ante 200
TERMINATORTOO - Posts small blind 1,000
LEON_BLACK - Posts big blind 2,000
WISCOMURRAY - Raises 5,500 to 5,500
LUCKYFKR - Folds
DODGEK - Folds
N0VASKY - Raises 16,750 to 16,750
TERMINATORTOO - Folds
LEON_BLACK - Folds
WISCOMURRAY - Calls 11,250
*** FLOP *** [4d 8d Js]
WISCOMURRAY - Checks
N0VASKY - Checks
*** TURN *** [4d 8d Js] [4c]
WISCOMURRAY - Bets 6,000
N0VASKY - Calls 6,000
*** RIVER *** [4d 8d Js 4c] [5s]
WISCOMURRAY - Bets 8,000
N0VASKY - Raises 25,750 to 25,750
WISCOMURRAY - Calls 17,750
*** SHOW DOWN ***
N0VASKY - Shows [7h Jc] (Two Pair, jacks and fours)
WISCOMURRAY - Mucks
N0VASKY Collects 101,200 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot(101,200)
Board [4d 8d Js 4c 5s]
Seat 1: DODGEK Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: N0VASKY (dealer) won Total (101,200) HI101,200) with Two Pair, jacks and fours [7h Jc - B:Js,P:Jc,B:4d,B:4c,B:8d]
Seat 5: TERMINATORTOO (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: LEON_BLACK (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 8: WISCOMURRAY HI: [Mucked] [6s 8s]
Seat 9: LUCKYFKR Folded on the POCKET CARDS
On this hand, how profitable to call the 4bet with KQ? Also, once Nova calls on the flop isn't it pretty obvious that wisco is beat and nova has at least an A?
Stage #1762911365 Tourney ID 4441983 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit 3,000 - 2009-07-09 03:12:35 (ET)
Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer
Seat 2 - N0VASKY (222,904 in chips)
Seat 8 - WISCOMURRAY (407,096 in chips)
N0VASKY - Ante 300
WISCOMURRAY - Ante 300
N0VASKY - Posts small blind 1,500
WISCOMURRAY - Posts big blind 3,000
N0VASKY - Raises 4,500 to 6,000
WISCOMURRAY - Raises 9,000 to 12,000
N0VASKY - Raises 27,000 to 33,000
WISCOMURRAY - Calls 21,000
*** FLOP *** [As 9s 7h]
WISCOMURRAY - Checks
N0VASKY - Bets 29,875
WISCOMURRAY - Raises 66,000 to 66,000
N0VASKY - Calls 36,125
*** TURN *** [As 9s 7h] [2c]
WISCOMURRAY - All-In 307,796
N0VASKY - All-In 123,604
WISCOMURRAY - returned (184,192) : not called
*** RIVER *** [As 9s 7h 2c] [Jd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
N0VASKY - Shows [Ah Kc] (One pair, aces)
WISCOMURRAY - Shows [Kd Qd] (ace high)
N0VASKY Collects 445,808 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot(445,808)
Board [As 9s 7h 2c Jd]
Seat 2: N0VASKY (dealer) (small blind) won Total (445,808) All-In HI445,808) with One pair, aces [Ah Kc - B:As,P:Ah,P:Kc,B:Jd,B:9s]
Seat 8: WISCOMURRAY (big blind) HI:lost with ace high [Kd Qd - B:As,P:Kd,P:Qd,B:Jd,B:9s]
This last hand is what confused me the most probably. I just don't know if he is betting for value with Q4 or as a bluff.
Stage #1762912318 Tourney ID 4441983 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit 3,000 - 2009-07-09 03:13:38 (ET)
Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer
Seat 2 - N0VASKY (447,608 in chips)
Seat 8 - WISCOMURRAY (182,392 in chips)
N0VASKY - Ante 300
WISCOMURRAY - Ante 300
N0VASKY - Posts small blind 1,500
WISCOMURRAY - Posts big blind 3,000
N0VASKY - Raises 4,500 to 6,000
WISCOMURRAY - Calls 3,000
*** FLOP *** [10h Qc Jc]
WISCOMURRAY - Checks
N0VASKY - Bets 6,800
WISCOMURRAY - Raises 16,600 to 16,600
N0VASKY - Raises 26,400 to 33,200
WISCOMURRAY - All-In(Raise) 159,492 to 176,092
N0VASKY - Calls 142,892
*** TURN *** [10h Qc Jc] [8d]
*** RIVER *** [10h Qc Jc 8d] [10s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
N0VASKY - Shows [9s Kc] (Straight, nine to king)
WISCOMURRAY - Shows [Qs 4s] (Two Pair, queens and tens)
N0VASKY Collects 364,784 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot(364,784)
Board [10h Qc Jc 8d 10s]
Seat 2: N0VASKY (dealer) (small blind) won Total (364,784) HI364,784) with Straight, nine to king [9s Kc - P:Kc,B:Qc,B:Jc,B:10s,P:9s]
Seat 8: WISCOMURRAY (big blind) HI:lost with Two Pair, queens and tens [Qs 4s - P:Qs,B:Qc,B:10s,B:10h,B:Jc]
Would love to know your guy's thoughts. -
Posts: 4,719
Joined: Jan 06Jul 9th, 2009 (7/9/2009 5:21am) in reply to kongs
1st hand... they are deep and postflop is standard, nice vbet jakooon. 2nd hand is a failed bluff attempt nothing more maybe trying to get nova off JJ-KK. Last one, meh its top pair heads up
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Posts: 996
Joined: Feb 06Jul 9th, 2009 (7/9/2009 8:38pm) in reply to OneTime_10
fwiw i feel like made a bad bluff with kqdd, and would take it back. i did put him on qq or jj but i doubt hes folding river even if he does. That hand I would do over if i could.
The last hand of the tournament i dont regret so much.
Would love some good thoughts. -
Posts: 4,719
Joined: Jan 06Jul 9th, 2009 (7/9/2009 8:44pm) in reply to kongs
Originally Posted by kongs
Are we serious?Originally Posted by doubledave22
1st hand... they are deep and postflop is standard, nice vbet jakooon. 2nd hand is a failed bluff attempt nothing more maybe trying to get nova off JJ-KK. Last one, meh its top pair heads up
yes... yes we are seriousOriginally Posted by Wiscomurray
fwiw i feel like made a bad bluff with kqdd, and would take it back. i did put him on qq or jj but i doubt hes folding river even if he does. That hand I would do over if i could.
The last hand of the tournament i dont regret so much.
Would love some good thoughts. -
Posts: 994
Joined: Oct 08Jul 9th, 2009 (7/9/2009 8:47pm) in reply to Wiscomurray
looks like Novaskys flatting of your 3-bet with K,Q set the river bluff up from you.
If he 4 bets there, you can easily bite the bullet there. I think hes paying attention to rock3656s lol. -
Posts: 996
Joined: Feb 06Jul 9th, 2009 (7/9/2009 8:54pm) in reply to kongs
In the last hand. he calls with k10, kj, club draw, maybe j9, 109, but yeah, he prob flats with some of these hands also instead of reraise me on flop. Like I said. I didnt play that great hu.
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Posts: 866
Joined: Nov 06Jul 9th, 2009 (7/9/2009 8:57pm) in reply to kongs
Yep what Dave said seems pretty cut and dry. The 3rd hand he could easily be drawing.Originally Posted by kongs
Are we serious?Originally Posted by doubledave22
1st hand... they are deep and postflop is standard, nice vbet jakooon. 2nd hand is a failed bluff attempt nothing more maybe trying to get nova off JJ-KK. Last one, meh its top pair heads up
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looooooool wow ur thought process for a reg is one of the worst iv'e ever heard. Oh and you might wanna consider folding the big q rag preflop next time if you are rlly this bad at hu and postflop poker. It's already really bad on sooooooooo many levels against a random, but vs a known solid player its about as bad as i have ever seen. lol at that queen ever being good for that amount of chips....I would be willing to bet you couldnt beat $50 hu sit n gos.
Originally Posted by Wiscomurray
fwiw i feel like made a bad bluff with kqdd, and would take it back. i did put him on qq or jj but i doubt hes folding river even if he does. That hand I would do over if i could.
The last hand of the tournament i dont regret so much.
Would love some good thoughts.
with all that said...I'm sure your a nice guy and everything... but you might wanna wanna re evaluate ur game and the way you approach and think through hands -
yes you are right i did.....
i have no other account....this is my first....
but i'm also not a strictly tourny donk with the poker thought process of a breakeven midstakes player -
calling pre and check raising that flop with the intention of getting it all in with that stack is beyond spew..... DON'T LET ANYONE TELL YOU OTHERWISE
Originally Posted by kongs
I don't know, I don't knock off huge scores but the last hand just seems like crazy spew to me. Nova calls with basically nothing that he beats.
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Posts: 288
Joined: Nov 06Jul 10th, 2009 (7/10/2009 12:41am) in reply to kongs
Just wanted to say congrats to Wisco on the cash here. He has always made some unorthidox plays, but is a player who trusts his gut, and I have seen him make reads that are pretty amazing. You can say whatever you want, but he has been bringing the $ back to Wisconsin consistently for a really long time now. Great work on another huge score.
And of course congrats to nova on the win as well. -
Posts: 4,719
Joined: Jan 06Jul 10th, 2009 (7/10/2009 12:55am) in reply to Beaver Fever
weee some class on p5. bever uve impressed me lately esp after that play in whatever rebuy it was where u left me exactly 1500 so id call more often... sfsexy of a bet. Yeah these hands are w/e like wisco could have played them better but hes like being open to suggestions and is being constructive about it so why bash the guy. grats to both of u as wellOriginally Posted by Beaver Fever
Just wanted to say congrats to Wisco on the cash here. He has always made some unorthidox plays, but is a player who trusts his gut, and I have seen him make reads that are pretty amazing. You can say whatever you want, but he has been bringing the $ back to Wisconsin consistently for a really long time now. Great work on another huge score.
And of course congrats to nova on the win as well. -
ub pro he prob that he was good, fuck that site
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Posts: 4,719
Joined: Jan 06Jul 10th, 2009 (7/10/2009 1:11am) in reply to beams
thx for ur worthwhile contributionOriginally Posted by beams
ub pro he prob that he was good, fuck that site
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nothing wrong with unorthodox plays/trying new things / going with ur gut to try and stay ahead of the poker curve. but there are just certain things when referring to HU play that are just bad. Not trying to bash him on being a good mtt player but i think its pretty obv he could use some hu practice and hand reading to help improve his game as a whole.
im pretty sure alot of the hands hes considering nova to possibly have are just completely wrong. he needs a much better grasp on wat type of hands nova is checking behind the flop with. there are just certain marginal hands that hes not c betting with there. and even if he is hes not gunna 3 bet/turn them into a bluff on the flop after getting check raised. obv nova is a capable hu player but ur crazy if u think he has anything other than pretty much a nutt hand for hu play after all that flop action on the 3rd hand. its seriously that or complete air 1 outta 50 times if there is some sick meta game history going on and thats extremely unlikely.
The fact that he doesn't understand how bad that last shove with the q is,(or pretty much every action that entire hand) and said he pretty much wouldn't change how he played the hand speaks a ton. -
Wisco nothing personal as I've never met you or talked to you but all of these hands are pretty miserable and makes it seem as though you're stuck on level 1 throughout.
Of course I post this with good intentions and not to bash. If someone told me that I would curl up in a ball for a day then study hard for a month. -
Posts: 223
Joined: Jul 06Jul 10th, 2009 (7/10/2009 5:30am) in reply to IWEARGOGGLES
finally, I had a feeling I wasn't alone here. This isn't to punk anyone because truly wisco makes bank and I just have fun playing poker. but that fact that everyone was standing up for him for what seems to be no reason was getting to me.Originally Posted by IWEARGOGGLES
Wisco nothing personal as I've never met you or talked to you but all of these hands are pretty miserable and makes it seem as though you're stuck on level 1 throughout.
Of course I post this with good intentions and not to bash. If someone told me that I would curl up in a ball for a day then study hard for a month. -
Posts: 994
Joined: Oct 08Jul 10th, 2009 (7/10/2009 8:58am) in reply to JAKoon1985
level 5 thinking can appear to some to be at level 1...when in reality its just a poker thought process that didnt yield positive results this time. But how can anyone say anything negative here on a 2nd place finish...that confuses me...gg wisco.
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Posts: 195
Joined: May 08Jul 10th, 2009 (7/10/2009 10:20am) in reply to pokerisfun12345
LOL at Wiscomurray not capable of playing well HU and not being able to beat $50 HU sngs. You may want to research a little deeper before making that comment. Fwiw, he said he didn't play HU well in that particular game .... Hilarious post here imoOriginally Posted by pokerisfun12345
looooooool wow ur thought process for a reg is one of the worst iv'e ever heard. Oh and you might wanna consider folding the big q rag preflop next time if you are rlly this bad at hu and postflop poker. It's already really bad on sooooooooo many levels against a random, but vs a known solid player its about as bad as i have ever seen. lol at that queen ever being good for that amount of chips....I would be willing to bet you couldnt beat $50 hu sit n gos.Originally Posted by Wiscomurray
fwiw i feel like made a bad bluff with kqdd, and would take it back. i did put him on qq or jj but i doubt hes folding river even if he does. That hand I would do over if i could.
The last hand of the tournament i dont regret so much.
Would love some good thoughts.
with all that said...I'm sure your a nice guy and everything... but you might wanna wanna re evaluate ur game and the way you approach and think through hands
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