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Odds needed to call pre with suited connectors? Example...

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  1. BscHons BscHons is offline

    Milton
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    Jul 3rd, 2012 (7/3/2012 11:27pm)

    I've included the hand below as an example - can we call here with 77bbs IP? Including the pot, if we stack our opponent, we have odds of roughly 20/1. If we had a pocket pair we can call here needing 15/1, but I wondered what the general rule about is about suited connectors?


    pokerstars Hand #80892876579: Tournament #574010373, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (25/50) - 2012/05/23 17:37:12 WET [2012/05/23 12:37:12 ET]
    Table '574010373 21' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
    Seat 1: atzektm (2960 in chips)
    Seat 2: kiwichic2002 (3109 in chips)
    Seat 3: Nilopolitano (3217 in chips)
    Seat 4: miguelir (2924 in chips)
    Seat 5: gargolilla (3750 in chips)
    Seat 6: Mércurial (3905 in chips)
    Seat 7: Yntelygent (2284 in chips)
    Seat 8: mrbeckz (3124 in chips)
    Seat 9: Maikawischus (8825 in chips)
    mrbeckz: posts small blind 25
    Maikawischus: posts big blind 50
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Mércurial [9d 8d]
    atzektm: folds
    kiwichic2002: folds
    Nilopolitano: folds
    miguelir: folds
    gargolilla: folds
    Mércurial: raises 52 to 102
    Yntelygent: folds
    mrbeckz: folds
    Maikawischus: raises 198 to 300
    Mércurial...
  2. whatisprofit whatisprofit is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 2:37am) in reply to BscHons

    Dude.... Obvious fold. why are you flatting a 3-bet here against hands that have you dominated like 98% of the time. you just know you are putting in 10% of you stack way behind, why the risk so early?
  3. EyeKnows EyeKnows is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 3:25am) in reply to whatisprofit

     
    Originally Posted by whatisprofit View Post

    Dude.... Obvious fold. why are you flatting a 3-bet here against hands that have you dominated like 98% of the time. you just know you are putting in 10% of you stack way behind, why the risk so early?

    no, flatting a 3-bet costs him 1/19 of his stack, not 1/10.

    doubt I am open min-raising here very often but if I do I will probably flat.

    I do not know a general rule about this situation. not saying there isn't, just I don't know.
    Edited By: EyeKnows Jul 10th, 2012 at 03:26 AM
  4. Adam Adam is offline Emperor

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 3:31am) in reply to EyeKnows

    I'm 100% calling here. In position against a likely very big starting hand. Odds are good enough
     
  5. Adam Adam is offline Emperor

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 3:33am) in reply to whatisprofit

     
    Originally Posted by whatisprofit View Post

    Dude.... Obvious fold. why are you flatting a 3-bet here against hands that have you dominated like 98% of the time. you just know you are putting in 10% of you stack way behind, why the risk so early?

    You don't play 89dd based on being ahead or behind preflop, it's all about what it can turn into and how much you're likely to win if it turns into a hand. The idea is generally that either you end up with nothing or a big hand/draw, making decisions relatively easy post flop while also disguising what you have
     
  6. RedIceRap RedIceRap is offline Redirator

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 4:57am) in reply to Adam

     
    Originally Posted by Adam View Post

    I'm 100% calling here. In position against a likely very big starting hand. Odds are good enough

    this.

    back to the question what odds we need, i dont know either, if the blinds are high enough so u can get in stacks postflop even with just top pair and be ahead a decent amount of times (cause of all the restealing going on late in tourneys) i call even with "bad" odds, it's simply a strong hand on many flops. here u really need to flop a good draw or something and reevaluate postflop. here u open with it to see a flop in position, and ur like 40bb deep and should flat there. i get all my chips with these typa hands in similar spots early in tourneys, cracking monsters and stuff
    Edited By: RedIceRap Jul 10th, 2012 at 05:07 AM
     219 1
  7. IMLegend IMLegend is offline Is Bighaley21, Bighaley21 account is reactivated

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 6:21am) in reply to RedIceRap

    Im calling here but need to play carefully on a 1082 rainbow type flop. Hand flops big often enough that a call preflop is definitely profitable.
  8. downbylaw11 downbylaw11 is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 7:54am) in reply to IMLegend

    im calling looking to hit a specific type of flop. 98s is hardly a trouble hand here. dudes 3 bet so often now with complete schmeg i want them to know im almost never folding. ill invest 300 just to let the table know im not gonna give it up just cause a guy 3 bet me. like mentioned, im obviously not looking to go crazy if i flop middle pair, or even top pair, but might be worth peeling one off on the flop, or just making a tough fold. i dunno. also, if you wanna be less lame, dont raise 102 at 25/50. if you want to acquire chips, sack up and put some into the pot. 70 bbs or whatever is plenty enough to 3x your starting hands. the whole 2x-ing thing is out of control. guys are using it in early levels, and it's completely counter productive to amassing a stack and just makes it easier for me to look you up. so, uh, nevermind, keep doing it
  9. Wesss Wesss is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 8:27am) in reply to downbylaw11

    flat at the very least..... but just maybe 4 bet/fold this hand once in a while. ur certainly not commiting urself w/ a 700 4 bet (ONCE IN A WHILE= when guy has like a 12% + 3 bet stat from bb on hud which isn't uncommon and ur in the co). you look super strong and he needs to have a hand that would be willing to put 78 bbs in pre to 5 bet u. ie he is NEVER doing it with less then jj maybe 1010+, ak. he flats and folds a lot of flops but i think usually just fold op preas its a super awkard spot for him. imo

    if not high 3 bet from bb then i think flat is way better ip and play post.
    846 
  10. djdoodoo djdoodoo is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 12:10pm) in reply to Wesss

    It's wouldn't be bad to call but it is bad that you have no reads on him. This is exactly the sort of hand you want to have some sort of read with to call with so you can abuse his tendencies without even hitting the flop.
  11. EyeKnows EyeKnows is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 9:39pm) in reply to Wesss

     
    Originally Posted by Wesss View Post

    flat at the very least..... but just maybe 4 bet/fold this hand once in a while. ur certainly not commiting urself w/ a 700 4 bet (ONCE IN A WHILE= when guy has like a 12% + 3 bet stat from bb on hud which isn't uncommon and ur in the co). you look super strong and he needs to have a hand that would be willing to put 78 bbs in pre to 5 bet u. ie he is NEVER doing it with less then jj maybe 1010+, ak. he flats and folds a lot of flops but i think usually just fold op preas its a super awkard spot for him. imo

    if not high 3 bet from bb then i think flat is way better ip and play post.

    4-bet/fold is just turning 98s into a bluff.

    obv kidding, gotta 4-bet fold sometimes but I'd rather see the flop cheaply here with a nice flopping hand in position.
  12. djdoodoo djdoodoo is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 9:48pm) in reply to EyeKnows

    I can't believe you're actually suggesting 4bet fold to this guy without any reads. That would actually be horrendous. Because he doesn't take notes or not in this scenario he might be 4betting a dreadful fish or a nit.
    Edited By: djdoodoo Jul 10th, 2012 at 09:54 PM
  13. EyeKnows EyeKnows is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 9:50pm) in reply to djdoodoo

     
    Originally Posted by djdoodoo View Post

    I can't believe you're actually suggesting 4bet fold to this guy without any reads. That would actually be horrendous.

    so you never 4-bet/fold?

    relax bro.
  14. BscHons BscHons is offline

    Milton
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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 10:41pm) in reply to downbylaw11

     
    Originally Posted by downbylaw11 View Post

    im calling looking to hit a specific type of flop. 98s is hardly a trouble hand here. dudes 3 bet so often now with complete schmeg i want them to know im almost never folding. ill invest 300 just to let the table know im not gonna give it up just cause a guy 3 bet me. like mentioned, im obviously not looking to go crazy if i flop middle pair, or even top pair, but might be worth peeling one off on the flop, or just making a tough fold. i dunno. also, if you wanna be less lame, dont raise 102 at 25/50. if you want to acquire chips, sack up and put some into the pot. 70 bbs or whatever is plenty enough to 3x your starting hands. the whole 2x-ing thing is out of control. guys are using it in early levels, and it's completely counter productive to amassing a stack and just makes it easier for me to look you up. so, uh, nevermind, keep doing it

    I don't 2x here as standard - not sure exactly why I did in this hand.
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  15. BscHons BscHons is offline

    Milton
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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 10:49pm) in reply to djdoodoo

     
    Originally Posted by djdoodoo View Post

    I can't believe you're actually suggesting 4bet fold to this guy without any reads. That would actually be horrendous. Because he doesn't take notes or not in this scenario he might be 4betting a dreadful fish or a nit.


    While that isn't really the point of this post, I'm never 4betting in this spot because:

    1. This player was station.
    2. It is very early in the the tournament, and I think a 4bet bluff is completely senseless at this stage with so little to win and no good reason (no dynamics, but even then!).

    As stated above, we have the stack and implied odds to call here but as this guy was stationy, it gave me even better implied odds as I feel this type of player is not 3betting light in this spot very often at all. Therefore if we hit, boom! Anyway, the flop brought me nothing so I made an easy fold.
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  16. BscHons BscHons is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 10:53pm) in reply to EyeKnows

    Thanks for your input everyone - much appreciated!
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  17. BscHons BscHons is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 10:56pm) in reply to EyeKnows

     
    Originally Posted by EyeKnows View Post

    4-bet/fold is just turning 98s into a bluff.

    obv kidding, gotta 4-bet fold sometimes but I'd rather see the flop cheaply here with a nice flopping hand in position.


    Am I misunderstanding something, and please don't this the wrong way, but are you expecting him to call with worse if we 4bet here?
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  18. EyeKnows EyeKnows is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 11:10pm) in reply to BscHons

     
    Originally Posted by BscHons View Post

    Am I misunderstanding something, and please don't this the wrong way, but are you expecting him to call with worse if we 4bet here?

    I wasn't the one that brought up 4-betting, I told a joke about it and basically said nothing wrong w 4-bet/fold sometimes.

    and if I was 4-betting here it's not because I think my 98s is ahead if I get called, it's because I think I am getting a fold often enough to make the move profitable.

    I said I'd want to call and see a flop in position here.
  19. downbylaw11 downbylaw11 is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 11:39pm) in reply to EyeKnows

    4 bet folding just compounds mistakes. in a 3 dollar tournament, i would go as far as to say, if you 4 bet with a hand you intend to fold to a 5 bet, you're doing it wrong. leave the levelling to the sick players in tough tournaments
  20. BscHons BscHons is offline

    Milton
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    Jul 10th, 2012 (7/10/2012 11:49pm) in reply to EyeKnows

     
    Originally Posted by EyeKnows View Post

    I wasn't the one that brought up 4-betting, I told a joke about it and basically said nothing wrong w 4-bet/fold sometimes.

    and if I was 4-betting here it's not because I think my 98s is ahead if I get called, it's because I think I am getting a fold often enough to make the move profitable.

    I said I'd want to call and see a flop in position here.

    Ok, NW. Your post seemed to suggest that 4betting 98s as a bluff was a joke, which confused me.
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  21. IMLegend IMLegend is offline Is Bighaley21, Bighaley21 account is reactivated

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    Jul 11th, 2012 (7/11/2012 12:07am) in reply to BscHons

    NEVER 4-betting this @ this level. Why? Antes havent even kicked in yet. Also such a spewy line 4-bet/folding. Just call here. Youre in position with a hand that has the potential to flop huge. If the guy has 1010+ AQ+ and you 4-bet youre just pissing away chips.
  22. yjbrewer yjbrewer is offline

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    Jul 11th, 2012 (7/11/2012 12:39am) in reply to IMLegend

    This was a great question and I can say that I have enjoyed this thread and incorporating this into my game.
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