[x]

See Where You Rank in Virginia

  1. Unfortunately, I ended up losing the hand, but I wouldn't have played it any different. It's a pretty cool hand in that it takes into account stack sizes, fold equity, and also the dynamic of the tournament prize structure.

    I had a fairly nice above average stack. I chipped up taking advantage of the small stacks wanting to make the money in the 100k freeroll, as we were right on the bubble. I picked up AK utg, blinds 200-400, I raised it to 1200. One of the chip leaders in the tournament reraised me 4000 to 5200, so now I had a decision to make. Making the money only means $80, but first in the tournament is $17k. I get excited about 17k, but not a big chill up my spine over $80 bucks. If I fold, I feel like a bitch, as I want to play aggressive in a freeroll. I can't really just call here, as it means half my stack is in the middle, which makes me prefer to just push and see all five cards with my AK. If their had been raise, call, reraise or some other insane action, then I would have felt like I had an easy fold as some of my outs were probably gone. In this situation I felt like my outs were alive, so the only proper move I believe was to move all in.

    I moved in, he called with TT, and I flopped an ace, but unfortunately he hit a ten on the turn, and it was gg me. After the hand was over he chatted that he put me on AK preflop, which I then believe made his play a bad one, and here's why:

    If I have TT in mid position, and an UTG player raises, I smooth call, especially if I put him on AK. A couple of things happen when he reraises 4k. If I do in fact have AK, he makes my only move fold or all in, which most aggressive players will opt for the all in. By making a bet that almost forces me to move in, he is now giving AK five cards to beat his hand. If he smooth calls and the flop comes low, he can then play his hand a couple of ways. He can either lead at the pot, and take it down, or he can check, hoping I make a continuation bet on the flop, and then he can reraise all in.

    There are several different reasons I believe he made a mistake, the first one was not only his reraise, but also the amount of his reraise which caused me to be in all in mode. Secondly, he still has three players left to act behind him, one with almost 8k in chips, and the other with 15k in chips. If either of these players moves in on top of his raise, then he basically has just thrown away almost 25% of his stack. When I'm a chip leader of a tournament, I don't make decisions based on what I am wishing a player to have. I also don't want to risk half my stack in a situation that is a coin flip at best, and in fact if his read was wrong, he could easily have been a 4-1 dog. They do make AA, KK, QQ, and JJ, and with an UTG raiser it's certainly in the realm of possibility that I have one of these hands.

    So, to sum up my opinion on the hand, He risked an inordinate amount of his stack with a hand that was vulnerable, because of the fashion in which he played it. With a big stack in a tournament I always try to chop away and chop away at small and medium pots, and I shy away from coin flip situations for huge chunks of my stack. As it gets later it in the tournament I then use position to my advantage, and if I have protected and maintained my nice stack by playing smart, then I now am chomping at the bit as the blinds increase as I am laying in wait to pick off the small to mid size stacks who begin to make poor decisons out of desperation. To me, this is how tournaments are won.

    Gl all,

    Chris.

    PokerStars Game #3785793063: Tournament #17359983, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2006/01/28 - 17:02:00 (ET)
    Table '17359983 245' Seat #2 is the button
    Seat 1: FatsoFat6969 (20589 in chips)
    Seat 2: Breeze099 (7795 in chips)
    Seat 3: PSBT (15600 in chips)
    Seat 4: gismo2kr (1910 in chips)
    Seat 5: brsavage (10765 in chips)
    Seat 6: Koo-Koo (4173 in chips)
    Seat 7: McRiverson (2605 in chips)
    Seat 8: thrillplyr (3590 in chips)
    FatsoFat6969: posts the ante 25
    Breeze099: posts the ante 25
    PSBT: posts the ante 25
    gismo2kr: posts the ante 25
    brsavage: posts the ante 25
    Koo-Koo: posts the ante 25
    McRiverson: posts the ante 25
    thrillplyr: posts the ante 25
    PSBT: posts small blind 200
    gismo2kr: posts big blind 400
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to brsavage [Kh Ah]
    brsavage: raises 800 to 1200
    gismo2kr said, "nope, I laid it in utg"
    PSBT said, "i don't feel bad"
    PSBT said, "my skin's too thick"
    Koo-Koo: folds
    McRiverson: folds
    thrillplyr: folds
    PSBT said, "i don't feel bad if i river a 1-outer"
    brsavage said, "he was trying to make u feel your outs were gone"
    gismo2kr said, "knew I would get calld"
    brsavage said, "lol"
    FatsoFat6969: raises 4000 to 5200
    Breeze099: folds
    PSBT: folds
    gismo2kr: folds
    PSBT said, "lol"
    gismo2kr said, "had KcAh"
    brsavage: raises 5540 to 10740 and is all-in
    FatsoFat6969: calls 5540
    *** FLOP *** [6c Qs Ad]
    *** TURN *** [6c Qs Ad] [Td]
    *** RIVER *** [6c Qs Ad Td] [4h]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    brsavage: shows [Kh Ah] (a pair of Aces)
    FatsoFat6969: shows [Tc Th] (three of a kind, Tens)
    PSBT said, "man"
    FatsoFat6969 collected 22280 from pot
     1
    Add brsavage to Rail
  2. BR-- I understand why you might smooth call there with the tens to avoid the probably coinflip situation, but then you are so frequently going to face a board with at least one overcard and in this case two.

    Also if he just calls your 3x blind raise the pot will now be laying better odds to later positions, thus also hurting his vulnerable hand against more players.

    Would you suggest raising a smaller amount, say to 3600?

    As always, thanks for sharing.
    Raise
    Add Lenny to Rail
  3. BR, I agree completely with your analysis. AK always "prefers" to raise allin, and if you suspect someone has AK the last thing u should do is accomodate him by min raising gim, just begging him to push on you.

    Its the old case of JJ vs AK...if u have to be allin your rather be raising allin with the AK but calling an allin with the JJ (because with the JJ you dont wanna be raising 99-tt etc out of the hand, where with AK u do want them to fold.)

    Very well said BR

    sheets
     
    Raise
    Add sheets to Rail
  4. not to be a prick...cuz I really enjoy learning from you guys....but.....

    " If he smooth calls and the flop comes low, he can then play his hand a couple of ways.He can either lead at the pot, and take it down, or he can check, hoping I make a continuation bet on the flop, and then he can reraise all in."

    You're acting first on the flop...

    10 10 is pretty tricky in that spot for the reasons lenny mentioned
    Raise
    Add Jeff_Lebowski to Rail
  5. I guess the key to this hand is that I raised from first position. Any good player reads strength at this point. You may be surprised to know that if I were him I smooth call even with QQ! As I stated in my post, his raise causes AK to move in, and he now gives me five cards to beat him without the benefit of having seen even a flop. By smooth calling he gets to see the texture of the flop and act accordingly. He clearly stated that he put me on AK, so obviously he is looking for a flop without an A or a K.

    Now, I stress to you the other key point, and that is that he had a big stack and risked it in a bad way, imho. If his reraise causes me to push, then he has risked his stack in a situation where at best he is probably a 50-50, and very might be a 4-1 dog based on the dynamics of the hand.

    I just don't believe in giving AK five cards to beat me in that situation.

    GL,

    Chris.
     1
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd brsavage to Rail
  6. Hey Chris

    I completely agree with your analysis from yours and his perspective good job!

    thor
     
    Add thorladen to Rail
  7. Just wanted to say thanks guys. This is a great post full of great insight. It's posts like these that really make me happy to be a part of the pocketfives group. When the top online players take time to share and help others, we all have to be thankful and give much respect.

    Thanks guys...
    Raise
    Add King_Koopa to Rail
  8. BR, I know you just read Kill Phil from a previous post, what is your opinion of him moving all in with the 10's here. As in he recoginizes you as a Phil and doesnt want to have to play a flop against you or be forced to call an all in pre flop by you. How would you have responded had he moved in?
    Raise
    Add Generaly to Rail
  9. Cris and sheets should be banned from posting!

    NeBlis
    Add NeBlis to Rail
  10. I wasn't folding AK in that spot, so yes i was calling. As I said before, he had a big stack, and his job was to protect, maintain, and use position to increase it. Playing a huge pot all in preflop with TT is not the recipe for winning a tournament AT THAT POINT IN TIME.

    Gl,

    Chris.
     1
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd brsavage to Rail
  11. sheets....can you elaborate on why you would rather be CALLING w/ jj?

    i've never really thought of it that way...that kind of blew my mind right there......
    1
    Add gbmantis to Rail
  12. Its interesting that you say your calling here. You have an above average stack, with your skill level why risk it on whats probably a coin flip, sure he could be donking of with AQ but probably a coin flip. Also if the stack sizes are reversed and he pushes in, do you call or advocate the protect the big stack theory? Just trying to get a better understanding cause I get deep a lot and am faced with these decisions often and appreciate the input.
    Raise
    Add Generaly to Rail
  13. I agree with Generaly here. You said yourself that if another person would have reraised the 10's you would have been out. I don't see why folding is out of the question. after all, "They do make AA, KK, QQ, and JJ." His raise looks like he wants action and you gave it to him. I would have thought QQ or better.

    Just curious why you wouldn't put him on something better. If he had AA or KK you would have your hand crippled.

    Would you have played this hand diferently had it not been a freeroll?

    Thanks for the posting.
    Raise
    Add Tim G to Rail
  14. his raise is NOT screaming this that he wants action. 4k raise screams hey I have 88-JJ He obviously knows that Br is a great player and doesnt want to play a pot with him. The freeroll aspect has nothing to do with this seeing at first was 17k. Not only does Br's logic make complete sense, but I have never thought about the hands I play in this way. The guy does want to get into a coinflip with Br cause he knows that Br can and will outplay him. Just like at the final table of a WSOP event or some other event forget which one some inferior player knew he had to get into a coin flip for the tourny or else he would just get outplayed unless he hit a miracle hand.

    Br and Sheets are both great and highly profitable, I dont see how their input raises any flags. He gave a great analysis of a common hand and this should just show you that you as it showed me that not only can I learn so much more about poker but I have just from the analysis of one hand by a high class player. Goodluck in the future Br and I appreciate the post.

    Sturge
    Raise
    Add sturgeball to Rail
  15. Chris, thank you very much for posting. I learned something from your post. Considering I just got knocked out of a Bodog tourney in 14th place when AK raised from early position and I reraised all in with 10 10 and he called. I think 26 Aces and Kings flopped. Couldn't even count them all. Next time I smooth call and either take the pot down on the flop or fold to the overcards that flop.

    Thank you for sharing and teaching me (and I hope others) something.

    Nick
    Raise
    Add NickS260 to Rail
  16. Mantis, Sklansky goes over this exact thing on pages 115-7 of TP for advanced players....

    sheets
     
    Add sheets to Rail
  17. Obviously hand discussion by BR with added input from Sheets is the most informative post we could hope for. I was just trying to take the discussion a little deeper. In no way am I questioning Br to the extend that I think his logic is flawed, I just want to learn as much as I can from the discussion.
    Raise
    Add Generaly to Rail
  18. Man you guys are teaching the sh*t out of this forum. Sheets, Actionjeff, BelowAbove, and now brsavage.

    When I first joined, I was a bit cynical at what the ranked players really "contributed" to this site. But now, after seeing the past couple weeks of this, you guys really are an inspiration to a lot of people on here. Nice job.

    (sorry if I sound like Supermoves.... jk SM)

    (And that Sheets thing on JJ vs AK really blew my mind too. I should read that book)
    Raise
    Add 1.21Gigawatts to Rail
  19. Very cool analysis of both the hand and the tournament dynamics. I think your
    completely right about his play too. I've noticed alot more of these plays lately
    during the middle parts of tourns.. I'm perplexed by the move as the blinds aren't
    dictating plays. I've wondered if that "allin or fold" strategy is responsible for it. I
    just don't get wanting to gamble when there's still plenty of time for skill and guile.

    O'well.. gl to ya.

    Rich
    Raise
    Add Tennis Bum to Rail
  20. Mr. Savage, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

    Sorry I could not resist from Billy Madison :)
    Shawno
     
    Raise
    Add westtexasman to Rail
  21. I'm glad you articulated this so well....
    I've started to realize that in situations in ones almost identical to the one above, if I had called with my TT, JJ then I probably would have been able to get an AK to fold to me when he doesn't hit the board....

    This though comes, of course, when I end up all in with 'AK guy ' and he gets to see all 5 and hits on the river.

    super post.
    Raise
    Add drawrs to Rail
  22. What I dont understand here: Why is his All In questionable with TT and the All In with AKo isnt? He was a favourite preflop (even if only a slight) and won at the end. Fair enough. A TT has the best change if up against a single opponent. So either you bet it high to reduce the field or you limp in and throw the hand away if you dont hit the flop.
    Out of my view AK is much overrated...(sure, i am happy to get it, but its not automatically an All In hand ...)
    Raise
    Add TheColorfull to Rail
  23. With AK, you dont have a made hand, so if you miss the flop, you have nada, with 10-10 you have a pair. But AK and 10-10 are about a coinflip preflop, but that's to the river. AK to the river is only a big underdog to the hands , AA, KK , ( that is only 6 hands, if you hold AK). !0-10 is dominated by J-J and above ( 24 hands). That's why pushing AK is better than pushing 10-10 to a raise, plus fold equity.

    BR- the guy that says he can put anybody on a specific hand, when someone raises 3 x bb utg, is either an idiot or , well an idiot. Bad play on his part.
    Raise
    Add FriedFish to Rail
  24. The reason a solid player doesn't fold AK in this situation is simple, as I stated in my original post. This was a freeroll, not a WPT event, although based on my stack, I may play the AK the same way in a 10k event in this spot with the dynamics of the hand.

    If I had reason to believe that some of my outs were gone, then I would clearly fold. This was just not the case based on the action in the hand. Statistically, it is highly improbable that your opponent has AA or KK when you hold AK in your hand.... of course it does happen, but you can't live your life in anticipation of it. That being said, there is a thing such as KYP (know your player), and there are several players that I will not name that I would instafold if they made the same move because I know the range of hands they make this move with, and one is AA, and the other is KK. In this case, I did not know the player, it was a freeroll, and I was playing to win.

    Sheets said he would play JJ the same way, and I further elaborated that I would play even QQ the same way, flat calling. If you really ponder the hand, it makes no difference if my opponent had QQ down to a medium pair. The concept holds true about how I would play the hand.

    Gl,

    Chris.
     1
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd brsavage to Rail
  25. It is perfectly legal to question anyone including me bud. That's why we post, for the sake of discussion.

    I really also wanted to elaborate on one key fact, and I can't stress it enough. The single biggest reason that I thought he misplayed his hand is simple, he was doing a horrible job of protecting his stack. He was basicly risking half his huge stack in a situation that he was guessing he was a 50-50, when in reality he could have been a 4-1 dog with his pair otf tens.

    THE WAY TO WIN TOURNAMENTS IS TO USE YOUR STACK WISELY. I can't begin to tell you the amount of tournaments I have won by using a large stack smartly by NEVER BEING ALL IN WITHOUT THE NUTS. The beauty of a large stack is you can use information that you have picked up from paying attention to your table. If i notice that there are a couple of guys playing extra tight, then I will be stealing their blinds like crazy. If it is close to the money, I will be raising many more hands. I will chop away at small and medium pots to build my stack. I will play intelligently and get information at a better price than a less experienced player, ie., I raised, was called, was hu in the hand, and I fire a continuation bet of one half of the pot, whereas another player might fire a full pot bet and then have wasted chips if he has to fold to a reraise.

    Gl,

    Chris.
     1
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd brsavage to Rail
  26. Hey chris,

    thanks for sharing and Teaching me something.

    Its always great to learn something from one of the great Online players.
    Add Punky99 to Rail
  27. Here is a better look:

    <OBJECT id=trainingApp_rj2 codeBase=http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=7,0,0,0 height=420 width=560 align=middle><PARAM NAME="allowScriptAccess" VALUE="sameDomain"><PARAM NAME="movie" VALUE="http://www.pokerxfactor.com/swf/trainingApp_rj2.swf?xmlHandID=1871&amp;fn=&amp;hn= 0&amp;mh=0&amp;sc=1"><PARAM NAME="quality" VALUE="high"><PARAM NAME="bgcolor" VALUE="#cccccc"> <embed src="http://www.pokerxfactor.com/swf/trainingApp_rj2.swf?xmlHandID=1871&fn=&hn=0&mh=0&s c=1" quality="high" bgcolor="#cccccc" width="560" height="420" name="trainingApp_rj2" align="middle" allowScriptAccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" /></OBJECT>
    <CENTER>Click here to view a larger version.</CENTER>
     
    Raise
    Add mindwise to Rail
  28. Hey BR, not sure if this has been explicitly answered in this thread, but if you've got the TT in this situation, how do you play it? Are you just calling pre-flop and then folding to a bet on the flop when 2 overs come? Just curious.
    Raise
    Add Hughester to Rail
  29. Yes. There are better spots as a big stack for me to commit a large amount of my chips. I want to take down uncontested small to mid sized pots, make intelligent plays in position, and bide my time waiting for the smallish stacks to make mistakes when the blinds rise and they feel desperate.

    Gl,

    Chris.
     1
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd brsavage to Rail
  30. Thanks for the input. Much appreciated.
    Add Hughester to Rail