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OK is this a STANDARD fold on the turn in Stars 3r or what?

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  1. fenominal fenominal is offline

    Orangevale, CA
    United States

    Posts: 113
    Joined: Sep 06

    May 12th, 2009 (5/12/2009 4:11pm)

    Player Ols82 had recently come to my table towards end of rebuy period and played pretty tight. Coming out of the rebuy period he was very active for the first 5-6 hands. What would you do on the turn here and why? The rest of the table was/is very soft so this is an automatic fold right? I counted 12 outs for straight and flush draw on the flop, plus is my King ever good here on the turn? Frustration shove with 10's-QQ? What else could I have done on flop? Shove seems real weak as we are pretty deep with me having 60bb's? Any help appreciated guys thanks.
    -Rick

    pokerstars Game #28118740913: Tournament #162033855, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level X (100/200) - 2009/05/12 12:57:31 PT [2009/05/12 15:57:31 ET]
    Table '162033855 387' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
    Seat 1: H4RRYP0TT3R (5225 in chips)
    Seat 2: AA-DIO-AA (5810 in chips)
    Seat 3: Ols82 (27785 in chips)
    Seat 4: rick95841 (13635 in chips)
    Seat 5: AAchongKK (7555 in chips)
    Seat 6: SRMGVIE (5995 in chips)
    Seat 7: mastermie (11445 in chips)
    Seat 8: SLAVENDER197 (13725 in chips)
    Seat 9: giovannino11 (16580 in chips) is sitting out
    H4RRYP0TT3R: posts the ante 25
    AA-DIO-AA: posts the ante 25
    Ols82: posts the ante 25
    rick95841: posts the ante 25
    AAchongKK: posts the ante 25
    SRMGVIE: posts the ante 25
    mastermie: posts the ante 25
    SLAVENDER197: posts the ante 25
    giovannino11: posts the ante 25
    SLAVENDER197: posts small blind 100
    giovannino11: posts big blind 200
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to rick95841 [Ks 8s]
    H4RRYP0TT3R: folds
    AA-DIO-AA: folds
    giovannino11 has returned
    Ols82: raises 400 to 600
    rick95841: calls 600
    AAchongKK: folds
    SRMGVIE: folds
    mastermie: folds
    SLAVENDER197: folds
    giovannino11: folds
    *** FLOP *** [4s 6h 7s]
    Ols82: bets 1000
    rick95841: raises 1200 to 2200
    Ols82: calls 1200
    *** TURN *** [4s 6h 7s] [Kc]
    Ols82: bets 24960 and is all-in
  2. sotti sotti is offline

    Portland, OR
    United States

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    May 12th, 2009 (5/12/2009 4:17pm) in reply to fenominal

    god that sucks, could be A7 for all I know.

    I would say probalby should only count it as 11 clean outs(6s is either in villians hand or boats/quads the villian up) since what comes to my mind on this hand is a set for the villian.

    I think you fold just becuase it's such a huge bet and donking off that amount seems like a bad idea.

    If you think the villian could have say AK, then you've got fully 15 outs, but still not ahead.
  3. fenominal fenominal is offline

    Orangevale, CA
    United States

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    May 12th, 2009 (5/12/2009 4:33pm) in reply to sotti

    Yes it could be A7, but he did raise coming in up front, so I put him on a tighter range than that. Do you think I played the flop ok or should I have raise more, less or not at all?
    Thread Starter
  4. sotti sotti is offline

    Portland, OR
    United States

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    May 12th, 2009 (5/12/2009 4:47pm) in reply to fenominal

     
    Originally Posted by fenominal View Post

    Yes it could be A7, but he did raise coming in up front, so I put him on a tighter range than that. Do you think I played the flop ok or should I have raise more, less or not at all?

    I don't mind the raise. I think the raise works well as a semibluff. If he's just leading with air, he should fold nearly all the time. The hands he's going to call with he's not going to fold for maybe even 1000 more than you raised, so putting more in the pot I don't think will do much.

    THe fact he flatted then shoved is really the interesting part. I don't know exactly how to read that other than he thinks he has the best hand but that it might be vunerable and wants you to pay to suck out.
  5. Pooplips Pooplips is offline I collect boogers

    Fremont, OH
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    May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 1:20pm) in reply to sotti

    Fold preflop
  6. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

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    May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 1:54pm) in reply to Pooplips

     
    Originally Posted by Pooplips View Post

    Fold preflop

    Why on god's green earth are you calling here pre? Pls fold.

    Its so hard for me to give advice on hands like this post flop and on subsequent streets. I mean you've got top pair and a huge draw. What more could you want? I mean isn't this what u were hoping for when you called pre?

    I have a real hard time folding this because I really doubt his shove is ever for value. I guess it is AA/set some % of the time because the donk is prolly scared of the draws out there.

    But man, this is a perfect example of why u fold these hands pre.

    TBH I don't see myself folding here only because there is a decent chance ur K is good and when its not ur likely drawing to the best hand.

    OTOH, a large stack is sooo overrated in the 3r early on. But if ur gonna play so loose this is likely a spot that is hard to pass up.
  7. K Sharp K Sharp is offline

    Whitman, MA
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    May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 2:44pm) in reply to fenominal

    dont get yourself in this situation to begin with
  8. odstore odstore is offline

    Cleveland, OH
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    May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 3:48pm) in reply to fenominal

    I don't know why you would ever call pre but as played I would make a bigger raise on the flop and I'm not sure I could fold once you hit top pair w/ the gut shot and fd. If you're playing K8s then it seems silly to fold on that board. This is a 3r, people freak out w/ 88-QQ all the time when an over card comes.
  9. fenominal fenominal is offline

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    May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 4:06pm) in reply to odstore

     
    Originally Posted by odstore View Post

    I don't know why you would ever call pre but as played I would make a bigger raise on the flop and I'm not sure I could fold once you hit top pair w/ the gut shot and fd. If you're playing K8s then it seems silly to fold on that board. This is a 3r, people freak out w/ 88-QQ all the time when an over card comes.

    I'm calling here pre for the following reasons guys:
    1. I am deep enough to peel a flop with another deep stack.
    2. I have position on him
    3. If I hit the right type of flop I can stack the guy.
    4. If I whiff the flop I can go away, but by calling him with any two I will be sending him a message that I am willing to play pots with him, and this may slow down his willingness to open too many pots light.
    Capiche?
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  10. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

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    May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 4:44pm) in reply to fenominal

     
    Originally Posted by fenominal View Post

     
    Originally Posted by odstore View Post

    I don't know why you would ever call pre but as played I would make a bigger raise on the flop and I'm not sure I could fold once you hit top pair w/ the gut shot and fd. If you're playing K8s then it seems silly to fold on that board. This is a 3r, people freak out w/ 88-QQ all the time when an over card comes.

    I'm calling here pre for the following reasons guys:
    1. I am deep enough to peel a flop with another deep stack.
    2. I have position on him
    3. If I hit the right type of flop I can stack the guy.
    4. If I whiff the flop I can go away, but by calling him with any two I will be sending him a message that I am willing to play pots with him, and this may slow down his willingness to open too many pots light.
    Capiche?

    1.) Um u don't peel flops from MP vs an aggro donk
    2.) This is a good observation. It can be better exploited by trapping him with a big hand or 3 betting him when u know ur ahead of his range.
    3.) So u didn't like this flop? or turn?
    4.) this is not a very good method for handling a laggy donk. He won't care that ur willing to play pots with him, in fact, he might like that. Secondly, don't count on him even noticing what ur calling with. It won't slow him down. To see how to slow him down and/or stack him see #2.

    Sometimes u just need to let the guy run you over for a bit. Let him continue to build his stack. You should be just fine with this guy adding to hisstack considering you have postion and will easily find lots of good spots to ciphon those chips into ur stack soon enough.
  11. fenominal fenominal is offline

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    May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 5:01pm) in reply to TheVillageGrinder

    Never said he was an agro donk. So anything related to that impression is false. In fact I said he sat down tight, it was only after the rb period he become a little active.
    Thread Starter
  12. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

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    May 14th, 2009 (5/14/2009 10:15pm) in reply to fenominal

     
    Originally Posted by fenominal View Post

    Never said he was an agro donk. So anything related to that impression is false. In fact I said he sat down tight, it was only after the rb period he become a little active.

    If he's become very active in the first 5-6 hands u can begin to assume he's a bit laggy. If he's in the 3r good chance he's a donk.

    Anyway all of my advice still applies. There is no need to be "peeling flops" from MP with raggy hands.
  13. jdbunchOSU jdbunchOSU is offline

    Weatherford, OK
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    May 16th, 2009 (5/16/2009 3:25am) in reply to TheVillageGrinder

    "Its so hard for me to give advice on hands like this post flop and on subsequent streets. I mean you've got top pair and a huge draw. What more could you want? I mean isn't this what u were hoping for when you called pre?"

    I couldn't agree anymore with this. Middle position is definately not where you wanna be calling a raise with hands like this because if your table decides to loosin' up on you, start re rasing, you'll just spew off chips calling raises that get repoped when your holding weak cards. definately fold pre

    but since you called, you flopped a good draw (flush and gut shot) and you turn top pair...if your gonna call with hands like this, couldn't of been a better board for you.

    from personally playing micro tournys (including the 3r) I've noticed that big stacks will easily make this shove with Ax suited when they have the flush draw. Not sure what you're read has been on this guy other then tight then loosened up, but I've personaly been busted by moves like this when i flop big.

    PS: fix anything i said cause its 2:30 and i'm tired
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