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Old Guy Micro-Donkery

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  1. Brann6 Brann6 is offline

    NC
    United States

    Posts: 41
    Joined: Aug 08

    Jan 22nd, 2011 (1/22/2011 1:18am)

    When I started my first thread a few weeks ago and referred to playing "concept poker" as opposed to "system poker," there was an overwhelming demand (by one respondent) to "post moar!" You asked for it (at least one of you did and that's enough), so, here it is.

    In my original thread I referred to the ongoing education of a micro-donk (me), and how several poker books had finally begun to steer me away from desperately seeking the elusive "winning system," and going for a more meta-game approach. This is about trying to get a handle on poker concepts as opposed to rote moves. Nothing I post is going to help successful young guns, but it may offer a little hard-earned insight to other micro-donks.

    (I don't have the hand history and the actual cards don't matter. Never fear, this won't be a detailed hand anyalysis.)

    I was in a micro tourney with either AA or KK, everyone still deep stacked, and made a standard raise from MP; only the BB called. The flop came JTT and I proceeded to stack off to his JTs. No need for details as to how; every micro-donk has done this.

    I was outraged! Outraged to the bottom of my nitty little heart! How could he? Hell, how dare he?!!!! Didn't he know I'd read Harrington? Couldn't he tell I was tight-aggressive? (We'll discuss stupid later.) He had to have known he was behind. What kind of idiots play poker nowadays? Who's stupid enough to call with THAT hand? My cat and dogs survived the tirade only because they were out of the room when this went down. I can't even begin to describe my anger and disgust. And the tilt...the tilt lasted for days.

    It was months before I finally began to draw something positive out of this hand. (Yeah, it stuck with me that long.)

    The first was tilt control when I finally internalized that I can't control how others play the game. That was a huge step for me since I'm definitely a bit of a control freak. I hardly react anymore when someone defends their blinds with 84s against my UTG raise. Actually, I expect to see a move like that at least half a dozen times per tourney. +ev for me, -ev for him doesn't even figure into the thought process. I just expect to see it and I do. Sometimes I stack off, sometimes not. It just is what it is.

    The second positive was when I looked to my own play. I know exactly what my thoughts were that day...."I hasz Aces!!!" Then my brain shut down and I stacked off to a player who was either smart enough to see I'd do that with an overpair (possible) or, more likely, saw a "purty" hand and didn't care/didn't know he was behind. Regardless, I was the dummy willing to stack off. So, hmmm, who was the donkey here?

    "System" poker would say AA is good from anywhere...and it is. "System" poker would say stacking off in the hand I listed is just standard, just variance, fire up another. "Concept" poker says "wait a minute! Why is this guy check-raising? Why is he still in the hand?"

    "System" poker says "I hasz Aces! I is an 80 or 75 or 73.88994 percent favorite to win!" "Concept" poker says "what's my image? Based on that and my position, what could he have flatted with? How could this flop have helped him? I know I was ready to get it all in pre, do I still want to do that?"

    "System" poker, the once but no more Holy Grail for me, put me into a lot of bad spots like this. Others may refer to it as Level One thinking and they're probably right. But I refer to it as "system" poker because, to me at least, level one, level two, etc. always seem to refer more to outfoxing your opponent through some sort of trickery. There's not going to be much of that at the micros beyond the basic thought my opponent might have had, such as "I'm going to call this tight ass, because if I hit hard I can probably stack the stupid bastard." And he was right.

    Brann
  2. RANDYPET RANDYPET is offline

    Grand Blanc, MI
    United States

    Posts: 569
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    Jan 22nd, 2011 (1/22/2011 2:26am) in reply to Brann6

    Good concepts Brann! It's hard for us 'old guys' to get beyond the point that 'I started with the best hand', to 'I have the best hand'! Not sure what level that is, but we have to strive to get there.
  3. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

    Cambridge, MA
    United States

    Posts: 4,519
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    Jan 22nd, 2011 (1/22/2011 2:34am) in reply to RANDYPET

    Bran-

    I think you missed the better point (although i generally liked your post)

    The problem isn't that you had aces and OMG they are the best. Preflop sure.

    But the real problem is in this hand, remembering to read board textures and that when someone gets aggro with you, while they might just be a spewhound, they probably have something. If you had stacked off to J 5 2 and te hguy held J5, ok, unlucky. But with a paired board, you need to be a lot more careful. Especially when it's one that could easily hit someones BB range.

    Good thoughts in general though- keep posting!
     
  4. Brann6 Brann6 is offline

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    Jan 22nd, 2011 (1/22/2011 3:29am) in reply to bonflizubi

     
    Originally Posted by bonflizubi View Post

    Bran-

    I think you missed the better point (although i generally liked your post)

    The problem isn't that you had aces and OMG they are the best. Preflop sure.

    But the real problem is in this hand, remembering to read board textures and that when someone gets aggro with you, while they might just be a spewhound, they probably have something. If you had stacked off to J 5 2 and te hguy held J5, ok, unlucky. But with a paired board, you need to be a lot more careful. Especially when it's one that could easily hit someones BB range.

    Good thoughts in general though- keep posting!

    Agree 100%. The concept I was trying to convey is that too many of us micro-donks view the game from an ABC perspective instead of realizing we're transparent and many times willing to stack off stupidly. The blinders WERE, in fact, that I couldn't imagine someone calling with JTs back then (06 or 07). That made calling a raise from me with anything remotely decent +EV for an opponent.

    The real problem for us slow-learners is we read the books, we learn the phrases and catchwords, but we really don't read board textures...we just think we do. We often fail to put opponents on hand ranges, try to interpret bets and bet sizing, we just skim the surface and think we're just unlucky.

    I could've used many other examples where I'm still surprised by opponents' calling ranges...75s, 84s, Q7o, etc....JTs just happened to be the one that started me on the road to trying to be a little more analytical.

    That's why I find the WPTOHAAT books to be so terrific. The concepts they explain so well far outshine the hand examples...yet, to an ABC "system" player, the hand examples become a "system."

    To you, JTs is just about automatically within someone's BB calling range. To me, back then, it was inconceivable.

    Brann
    Edited By: Brann6 Jan 22nd, 2011 at 03:30 AM
    Thread Starter
  5. JerrysWorld JerrysWorld is offline

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    Jan 22nd, 2011 (1/22/2011 3:32am) in reply to Brann6

    I love it
  6. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

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    Jan 22nd, 2011 (1/22/2011 5:57am) in reply to Brann6

     
    Originally Posted by Brann6 View Post

    Agree 100%. The concept I was trying to convey is that too many of us micro-donks view the game from an ABC perspective instead of realizing we're transparent and many times willing to stack off stupidly.

    I think you nailed it here in a nutshell. microguys generally are totally transparent and play ABC poker,( except for the ones that completely spew.)
     
  7. rayfox111 rayfox111 is offline

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    Jan 22nd, 2011 (1/22/2011 12:03pm) in reply to bonflizubi

    Your thread Brann, illustrates again why experience is an important commodity in any activity.
    You can read books all day long, but for most of us, many concepts dont really sink in.

    The good / experienced players always insist that you play alot, and its top advice, provided that you take note of when you make mistakes.
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