Check out our brand new Local Poker Communities! Get updates and interact with poker players in your area.
Visit the United States Poker Community | Visit the California Poker Community | Read more about the Launch of P5s Local

Overuse of allins?

Reply to Thread
  1. azholdm azholdm is offline

    Tucson, AZ
    United States

    Posts: 49
    Joined: Mar 06

    Apr 14th, 2006 (4/14/2006 2:31am)

    I have read and tried to follow several of the variations of the strategy in the Kill Phil book.

    However in inexpensive online NLHE tourneys, the method seems to be quite frustrating.

    This is borne out not only by my too-many-callers bad beat experience in many online tourneys, but, for a larger statistical sample, the reports in the forums at the publisher's site, lasvegasadvisor.com.

    The premise of the KP book is that in real brick-and-mortar tourneys against serious -- even famous -- players, newbies can use careful allins to hold their own. The Phils cannot easily answer internet players with a calculated fondness for allins. Sure, you get some bad beats, but allins get more respect.

    The problem with using this strategy online is that allins online are very common, and people call with anything. A shocking amount of time, they will call with goofy hands. And they win. Q3s beat my pocket aces. No serious player would call an equal stack allin with so squirrelly a hand.

    You play an hour and a half in a tourney, get AA, go allin preflop and get called by whatever which often beats your aces. You learned something, I guess, but on another level, you just blew your 90 minutes of stack-building effort.

    Now this sounds like any old bad beat whine, but I notice in some of Gidders' videos, he singles out the use of allins for criticism. He suggests a raise of 4X the BB instead.

    Why? People accept that raise as representing a good hand and don't call it. Anyway, the pot's not that big.

    Something about an allin raises people's curiosity and the thrill of gambling to win a jackpot of chips. Any two cards can win! Call that allin like they do on television!

    I myself would never call an allin from a player who equaled or exceeded me in chips without a heck of solid hand. No Q3 suited for me.

    (There is a Matt Matros article at Cardplayer.com that endorses going in with your first hand at the WSOP if you turn up aces. But in that example, Matros says that you can see the hand of the only player who hasn't folded. You notice he doesn't have a pair. The odds are better for you in that case.)

    I would post this at the Kill Phil's own forum, but they will gently assure me that 11,000 tourney hands I've played is not enough to accurately test the KP method. I think it is. The economist and stock speculator John Maynard Keynes said, "In the long run, we are all dead."

    In short, I think Gidders is really on to something.
  2. youcanhaveitall youcanhaveitall is offline

    United States

    Posts: 143
    Joined: Feb 06

    Apr 14th, 2006 (4/14/2006 7:44am) in reply to azholdm

    "You play an hour and a half in a tourney, get AA, go allin preflop and get called by whatever which often beats your aces. You learned something, I guess, but on another level, you just blew your 90 minutes of stack-building effort." Hold on, are you saying that you would rather play postflop than get the money in preflop with aces? This isnt chess, you have to accept you are not ubeateble when you get the money in no matter what.
  3. azholdm azholdm is offline

    Tucson, AZ
    United States

    Posts: 49
    Joined: Mar 06

    Apr 14th, 2006 (4/14/2006 2:35pm) in reply to youcanhaveitall

    I'm saying it depends on the table, your position, your relative stack size, aggressiveness of the players yet to act, etc. Frankly, I always go allin with pocket rockets.

    But I have been called as a short stack holding AA by 3 callers. If I had thought longer, I would have realized I would get many callers, too many callers. Then that particular AA allin is a bad play. I don't recall which of the 3 callers beat me, but one sure did.

    I see that in PokerStove pocket rockets win 85% vs. one caller, but only 61% of the time vs. three callers.

    I sometimes go allin with KK. The last time did this I was called by 88. He hit an 8 and I was gone. I've noticed people often call an allin with Ax offsuit, which gives those holding pocket kings something to think about.

    What I'm really getting at here is the refusal of some very good players to race for all their chips, no matter what their hand. I believe Gidders is a good example.

    (BTW, my chess results are far inferior to my poker results. I was hoping that was due to bad luck. Darn.)
    Thread Starter
  4. MileHighKid MileHighKid is offline

    Arvada, CO
    United States

    Posts: 394
    Joined: Jul 05

    Apr 14th, 2006 (4/14/2006 3:49pm) in reply to azholdm

    The all-in preflop with the blinds 20/40 and you bet $3k is a scared play. When I see someone do that I'm pretty sure their post flop play is probably not all that good and look forward to getting involved in a hand with them where I can out play them on the flop. If I've got AA I almost never go all in unless I'm reraised and then I'll reraise or just shove depending on what the bet is at. My goal is certainly to get all my money in but I want to give the other guy a chance to be the one to put me all in. Shoving with AA into a $30 pot is the best way to get the least value from your AA's. I don't get cute with them either and check or call or any of that nonsense.

    You've hit the nail on the head and the thought of most pro's. Most top pro's don't like to get all their money in pf because it takes no skill to do that and they feel they can outplay most other people on the flop and they are probably right. Once you call an all in you have no chance to change your mind. However, if you call a raise or make a raise instead of pushing then you can always get more information about your opponents hand. If I just push with AK or JJ and all of the sudden the rock who hasn't played a hand for the last 60 minutes calls me I know I'm in trouble. However if I have AK make a raise and I get reraised by the same rock well then I have more information. That's primary why you don't want to just push indiscriminately.

    Now if you're more inexperienced and feel you're not one of the better players at the table then you take away the more skilled players ability to outplay you on the flop because you know you'll get to see all 5 cards no matter what. The other thing to that is if you go all in with AA and get called by Q3 well that's exactly the type of hand you'd want to call you. 8 out of 10 times you'll win the pot and take all his chips so that's the result you want. If you're routinely getting those type of calls when you're that far ahead then that's a great result.

    The reason you raise 4x the bb is to get other callers but you also want to narrow the field down. You should want to take the flop with AA against 1 or 2 other players but not against 3 or 4. Even so if I'm a 60% favorite to win a pot against 3 or 4 callers then I'm happy with that too. So it's as much to make them think you have AA's as it is to get paid on your best hands.
  5. xcalibur1120 xcalibur1120 is offline

    Helena, AL
    United States

    Posts: 313
    Joined: Dec 05

    Apr 14th, 2006 (4/14/2006 6:02pm) in reply to azholdm

    FYI: The "Kill-Phil" method is very similar to "THe System" developed and described by Skalnasky in "Tournament Poker for ADvanced PLayers". Basicly, during first three blinds levels (during WSOP), push all in w/ AA, else fold. AFter antes kick in at third level, push all in with any pair, and AKs if first in the pot, else fold. If someone has entered the pot in front you, push all in with AA,KK or AKs, else fold. The idea behind this is that you'll have people folding stuff like JJ an TT and even QQ as they don't want to race for all their chips. I tried this in some $5 SNGs with some succes but it got killed in a MTT...people just can fold those KTs and A4s for all thier entire tourney.
  6. sketchy1 sketchy1 is offline Dangerzone

    Posts: 9,598
    Joined: Apr 05

    Apr 14th, 2006 (4/14/2006 6:04pm) in reply to azholdm

    hey, if you think it's EVER CORRECT TO FOLD ACES or not push with them, then you're just not very bright. YOU WANT PEOPLE CALLING YOU WHEN YOU HAVE ACES.
      

    sketchy1 is an instructor at PocketFives Training . To get more of his advice and to watch his training videos, click here.

  7. pariah pariah is offline

    United States

    Posts: 1,730
    Joined: Apr 06

    Apr 14th, 2006 (4/14/2006 7:29pm) in reply to xcalibur1120

    Sklansky on his system:
    http://web.archive.org/web/200304040...p;art_id=13194
  8. azholdm azholdm is offline

    Tucson, AZ
    United States

    Posts: 49
    Joined: Mar 06

    Apr 14th, 2006 (4/14/2006 11:34pm) in reply to sketchy1

    Quote:
    hey, if you think it's EVER CORRECT TO FOLD ACES or not push with them, then you're just not very bright. YOU WANT PEOPLE CALLING YOU WHEN YOU HAVE ACES.
    *****

    You don't fold them, you raise them. You don't always push if you as short stack will get called by several at the table.

    It's fun to show your pocket rockets to an admiring table. But with two or more callers, your odds are not very good.
    Thread Starter
Reply to Thread

Similar Threads