although feel free to leave out the "why" if you're too lazy :-/

pokerstars Game #25327474311: Tournament #142787450, $150+$12 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2009/02/25 0:57:22 ET
Table '142787450 66' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: p3rc4 (87469 in chips)
Seat 2: sofa king AK (42428 in chips)
Seat 3: Janssonya (33471 in chips)
Seat 4: Babooyah (24348 in chips)
Seat 5: Altrum Altus (61349 in chips)
Seat 7: TheJaguar1 (28379 in chips)
Seat 8: J26Methead (53259 in chips)
Seat 9: what is 7x6 (68359 in chips)
p3rc4: posts the ante 200
sofa king AK: posts the ante 200
Janssonya: posts the ante 200
Babooyah: posts the ante 200
Altrum Altus: posts the ante 200
TheJaguar1: posts the ante 200
J26Methead: posts the ante 200
what is 7x6: posts the ante 200
p3rc4: posts small blind 1000
sofa king AK: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to what is 7x6
Janssonya: folds
Babooyah: folds
Altrum Altus: folds
TheJaguar1: folds
J26Methead: folds
what is 7x6: raises 3000 to 5000
p3rc4:

stakes outta my league, but isnt ur range on button in an unopened pot wide enough for a 3bet call to be profitable?

 

Originally Posted by POKER_PANDA

stakes outta my league, but isnt ur range on button in an unopened pot wide enough for a 3bet call to be profitable?

the hand doesn't actually involve me....I pretty much just posted it for a friend, so that he could see what the consensus would be. However, if everybody is going to be like Afink or ASPoker8, I guess we might as well delete the thread.

go allin, unless you have a reaaaaally nitty image and then maybe a small 3bet might have more fold equity

 

Originally Posted by pikappraider78

this is a weird spot. i dont like shoving 34bbs here and i dont like 3 betting since hes got a perfect 4 bet stack and i dont want to 3 bet call here with 66. against a random i 3 bet fold since there not 4 betting light. against a reg im flatting here and check calling or check raising decent flops

3bet/fold???????? wtf is going on lol
his range is too wide to flat

shoving takes away the chance of u ever getting alllin dominating him even tho u do fold out some hands that ur flipping with

I think best play is to 3bet 14k-16kish and call shove, you give urself a chance to get in a 80/20 that you missed out on by shoving. but ur also gonna be flipping with a ton of his 4bet range to.

3bet 14-16k/call shove > shove > call > fold > 3bet/fold(lol@that wtf really???)

oh ill add im pretty sure hes a decent player and hes not gonna be flatting ur 3bet here often if ever

 

Originally Posted by Gettin Daize

shit ill also add that he prolly shoves in some random shit with a card 6 or lower at least a small % of the time the more i think about it the more i like raise/call

Yeah but that's not enough to outweigh the times he shoves a hand like QTs where we'd prefer he just fold so we can take down the dead money.

oh wow p6's? your crushed , easy fold.

guys generally take one of three lines if you call their raise, barrel flop shut down unimproved, check behidn flop barrel turn shut down if unimproved....so you can calll...or you could even call then donk lead the flop. his stack size is such that he will not mess around witha donk lead. he has a perfect 4betting stack, but too small a stack to mess with a donkbet with air

this isnt 2007, ppl arent repopping lp raises light consistently. thus ppl arent re 4betting light. with dead money in the pot rr calling is probably slightly +ev, but i dont think that its ideal

 

Originally Posted by lasfinist

guys generally take one of three lines if you call their raise, barrel flop shut down unimproved, check behidn flop barrel turn shut down if unimproved....so you can calll...or you could even call then donk lead the flop. his stack size is such that he will not mess around witha donk lead. he has a perfect 4betting stack, but too small a stack to mess with a donkbet with air

Your thought process is so off....all that jibberish ur talkin about on the flop is redic. Why would i want to call someone with a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEE range with 66 oop and mindlessly donk lead the flop not even knowing if im bluffing or valuebetting when his hand could be ne thing from 52s to aa.....i reallly dont know how people think flatting is an option his opening range is huge, 66 plays disgusting oop vs someone with a brain only 30 bbs deep.

Also wtf are u talkin about guys generally take one of 3 lines? ur not playin with robots bro people adjust

 

Originally Posted by lasfinist

the thing about flatting is that while next to no one does it....why is it so bad? so is there exactly 0 pct of your range that you flat there? i just think rr calling is horribad vs a unknown opponent deep in the nightly. In the 100r, where there isnt much of an edge i am rr calling 95 pct of the time there...in the nightly where deep players are awful i just htink there are so many better spots. i am the last person to harp on better spots, but itm in the nightly with a great stack, i just think there are much much better spots then rr calling 6s there. I would prefer folding to rr calling. overshoving on him is better then rr calling. that way he mnight fold 7s and 8s and kqs, and aj and hands you dont really want him to 4bet you with

ID bet u my whole bankroll hes never ever ever ever folding 88 to a shove.

yeah true....i did kinda sound like an idiot reraeading it...buuuuuuuut, maybe i am more confident in playing oop then most but i know their range is huge on the button, but people arent in a hurry to put in 30+bbs postflop deep in a biggish tourney. Guys are going to check it down, and just because you would cbet K8 on a 1073 flop there doesnt mean everyone would. I think you can extract value by flatting, calling flops, then checking to them on the turn (they check behind) then allowing yourself to get either value bet on the river, or as many donkeys do allowing them to bluff in a manner that doesnt make any sense. OOP on the river is quite possibly one of my favorite spots in poker, because hardly any players know how to play correctly when checked to on the river. Ppl dont value bet thin enough, and people bluff way too much. there aer also alot of boards that you can value bet him, where it looks like a missed draw, where ace high looks like a good hand to him, etc etc. And while everyone preaches against blocker bets, there are alot of strange bet sizings on the river that will completely freeze a player. You have to remember we arent playing against regulars here.

if the guys range is huge on the button...why are we goign to force is 52s out of the pot? dont you want 52s in there when you have 6s? sure playing oop isnt the easiest thing to do, but i would say it has more value then rr calling. And i didnt say that I woudl donk lead, or wouldnt, but if you called 5k then led for 6.5 or 7k on lets say (100 pct) of boards, while that is way too high of a percentage, you put him in a spot where he is not going to bluff raise you, ppl arent floating with 30bbs deep in tourneys either. Donk betting strangely enough looks strong to most people

yyea u dont mind having the 52 in there with you but to be honest people opening 52 prol arent letting u get to showdown very easily so his hand becomes pretty irrelevant...It's not like ur ever stacking his 52s unless u flop a set ne way. or even winning moore than 1 more bet