Hey guys. I've been going through some old hands that I saved, and was looking for a hand to post for another good strategy discussion. Generally I look for unusual or strange hands where there is good multi-street discussion...but i came across something a little different.

This hand is from another 50 freezout on stars. it's super early, as you can tell by chipstacks, everyone is right around 3k. I decide to just flat the button raise with aces here, sure, i could 3bet, but cause it was probably only the like 10th hand of the tourney i just decided to flat...everyone knows the advantages and disadvantages to 3betting pre, so i'd rather just ignore the flat pre for now and assume it's fine/standard. either way...bb comes along too, and the flop is pretty bad for our AA, lots of draws. usually on these boards i'll check/call once or twice, and hang around if no spade falls...but on this particular board, being that i'm out of position and that there's a 3rd player in the hand as well i decided to just check/fold

What are your thoughts about simply giving up here on the flop and not even calling one bet? I felt i was so often going to have to fold on the turn or river that it wasn't even worth calling the first bet. not to mention the fact that i dont' think this guy is necessarily going to cbet thatttt wide on a board like this into 2 players. What about if the flop was K94sss, would c/f be good then? how about K74sss? K42sss? on a less draw heavy board like the K74sss should we be check/calling once? twice? 3 times?

Basically, even though this is going to be tough to play, is it too weak to just fold the flop?


pokerstars Game #xxxxxxxx: Tournament #xxxxxxx, $50+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - xxxx/xx/xx xx:xx:xx ET
Table 'xxxxxxxxx xx' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: ALXPro (2840 in chips)
Seat 2: Woopiglewie (3060 in chips)
Seat 3: lrounderl (2880 in chips)
Seat 4: pkb6786 (2980 in chips)
Seat 5: Garry26 (2960 in chips)
Seat 6: PvillePlaya (2970 in chips)
Seat 7: Gags30 (3010 in chips)
Seat 9: Look4Waldo (3400 in chips)
Gags30: posts small blind 10
Look4Waldo: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Gags30 [Ac Ad]
ALXPro: folds
Woopiglewie: folds
lrounderl: folds
pkb6786: folds
Garry26: folds
ARMOSANCJ is connected
PvillePlaya: raises 40 to 60
Gags30: calls 50
Look4Waldo: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [Ks Ts 4s]
Gags30: checks
Look4Waldo: checks
PvillePlaya: bets 100
Gags30: folds



I obviously have some thoughts about all of these questions that I posed, but I thought this was a rather odd/interesting spot that doesn't come up too often that people often times struggle with and wind up bleeding chips

also, to add some more things to discuss, how about when the board runs out all spades? with absolutely no reads on a player, is this a losing call, or does a random player bluff often enough to make blindly clicking call profitable here?

Full Tilt Poker Game #xxxxxxx: $14,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (xxxxxxxx), Table xx - 1700/3400 Ante 400 - No Limit Hold'em - xx:xx:xx ET - xxxx/xx/xx
Seat 2: xxxxxxxx(179,299)
Seat 3: jbk2 (260,130)
Seat 5: Gags30 (158,439)
Seat 6: 3_AM_THUNDER (140,973)
xxxxxxxxx antes 400
jbk2 antes 400
Gags30 antes 400
3_AM_THUNDER antes 400
jbk2 posts the small blind of 1,700
Gags30 posts the big blind of 3,400
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Gags30 [8d 9d]
3_AM_THUNDER folds
xxxxxxxxx raises to 8,500
jbk2 folds
Gags30 has 15 seconds left to act
Gags30 has requested TIME
Gags30 calls 5,100
*** FLOP *** [5h 9s Js]
Gags30 checks
xxxxxxxxxx bets 13,999
Gags30 calls 13,999
*** TURN *** [5h 9s Js] [5s]
Gags30 checks
DeepInCidurr checks
*** RIVER *** [5h 9s Js 5s] [7s]
Gags30 checks
xxxxxxxxx has 15 seconds left to act
xxxxxxxxx has requested TIME
xxxxxxxxx bets 29,000
Gags30 has 15 seconds left to act
Gags30 calls 29,000


thoughts?

You've obviously played alot more poker than me and I'm probably wrong here, but I'm definately raising to 250 to find out where Im at with AA on the flop, and folding if he reraises me. If he flats Im putting him on a flush draw and betting for value if I get checked to on the turn (assuming a spade doesnt hit). If he bets out on the turn after flatting I would try gauge by the size of the bet, whether it was a defensive bet trying to get a cheap river(in which case I flat and hope no spade falls), or if he bets out big on the turn i fold. I check down the river if he checks to me (assuming the draw misses) just to be safe. If he bets the river (assuming no spade hits) I guess I'm Calling assuming its a bluff on a missed draw.

I cant see myself folding 89 the way the hand played out. you set it up for him to bluff at, and i know i would have taken a stab at a pot that big in that situation.

Hand 1 I'd lead in some instances and go from there. In some instances I think c/f is best but I'd take sizing into account.

Hand 2 I think is welp. I expect most ppl to check back weaker spades and 1 pair hands otr so he's repping few value hands and a lot of those he probably barrels on the turn. So I call river here

Im falling asleep I'll try to post deeper insight tomorrow. Interesting tho

Hand 1 there is no way I check foldflop. You are underrepped to begin with and his cbet range should be very wide especially when 2 players check. Check call flop and potentially check call blanks ( bet sizing, timing, reads on player), on turn and river is what I would do. Though I doubt I call 3 streets onthis board, hopefully he checks turn or bets a weak amount.

Hand 2 - depends on reads. One of those spots where your feeling will have a big part in making the right decision, you can level and reason all you like but unless have an idea how this player thinks you dont know what to do.

I personally have seen A lot of players will bluff these boards when you show weakness, because it's a tough call if you don't have a high spade. I used to feel like I had to bluff these boards a lot but have slowed down because certain players will check with intention of calling, especially after turn is checked. I don't think he bets any better pairs than yours in an attempt to get you to fold a flush. I think he checks back with a pair. I also think he would value bet a flush or boat here so any reads on his typical river value sizing would help. Really for me would depend on what i had seen. What worse hands does he expect a call from on river when he bets 65% of the pot? I dont think a big bet makes sense for him given you most likely have a bluff catcher, but he might not know that ( about his bet sizing). he should bet smaller to get an obligatory call from your little pair.

I'd always call at least one more on the flop (although you got me thinking maybe I shouldn't since we do indeed fold so many turns). I think hand 2 depends on the player, a good player likely won't be bluffing here with this line, whereas someone bad/unaware could definitely just be blindly barreling the 4th spade here as a pure bluff

 

Originally Posted by Gags30

ya i agree with pretty much everything adam wrote here, you summarized a lot of my thoughts on the hand pretty well

What about hand two? What where you thinking each street?

i really dont mind the c/f in hand #1 since basically half the deck is somewhat scary on turns and rivers.
i mean if we c/c flop what are we going to do on a K,Q,J,T,9 and all spades turns? if he barrols again?
blindly c/c again seems kinda ugly.
and he is cbetting a monotone board into 2 players in the first level, some might just not bother cbetting air here so early vs 2 ppl.
w/o any reads i think its prolly the best play to just c/f.
and yeah we are underrept but is that really worth anything in that spot?

Hand #2 is well played i would say w/o doing any math etc...
so we need to call 30k to win roughly 80k so we need to be good 35ish % if i�m correct.
He raises the BTN so he obv has a wide range, but there are lets say 16 combos of A4 and we would think he bets a flush on the turn. So there are 6 combos with spades ut of 15, 3 of them are low spades and prolly check back the river. So 3 cobmos of 15 have the As in them which is 20% of all the A4 combos.
If i�m not totally off here this has to be true for basically all non paird hands.
u would think a boat or trips will bet the turn, he could have binked with pocket 77�s but that just another 3 cmobos.
Not sure if all that makes sence but i think he shows up with air here a decent % trying to get us to fold our one pair type hands

 

Originally Posted by FenwayKing

interesting c/f on the first hand,i can dig the logic for sure. idk though, i feel like randoms aren't barreling with enough frequency to just give up here after one street. obv you're gonna give up on a lot of turns or whatever, but it's early and dolts will just cbet wide regardless of textures. if it goes ck ck on the turn, you're gonna be faced with a fairly easy decision on a lot of rivers. I think i would peel

the problem i have here is, A. if it doesn't go check/check on the turn, then i'm in a really bad spot, i'm out of position, still unsure of how wide he's betting, and still will have to dodge probably 14 outs at least...plus, from the flop, at least 50% of run-outs i'm going to have to give up on, and then not to mention the times that the board bricks but he keeps barreling and i have to fold.

and ya, i agree that people are bad and cbet without thinking and stuff...but i'm not so sure about a board like this, i mean, it's 3 spades and it's 2 high cards and fairly coordinated AND it's vs 2 people...i think even dolts realize that they're gonna get called by a lot of spades so they just slow down unless they have something decent (pair and a spade, draw and a spade, etc.)