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PL Omaha Hi - just call the river bet?

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  1. Twin C Twin C is offline

    Brooklyn, NY
    United States

    Posts: 323
    Joined: Apr 05

    Jul 27th, 2009 (7/27/2009 9:10pm)

    Bad play or cooler? Not being results oriented. I want to see if I'm misplaying.

    Full Tilt Poker Game #13658825730: Table Zero (deep) - $0.50/$1 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 21:02:01 ET - 2009/07/27
    Seat 1: french4711 ($109.80)
    Seat 2: drtooth76 ($100)
    Seat 3: DuraAce ($195.10)
    Seat 4: runnerunnerat ($238.60)
    Seat 5: lfb123 ($105)
    Seat 6: OFFTHERAGGZ ($218.65)
    Seat 7: DoctorSuckout ($166.80)
    Seat 8: ElDiablo444 ($153.50)
    ElDiablo444 posts the small blind of $0.50
    french4711 posts the big blind of $1
    OFFTHERAGGZ posts a dead small blind of $0.50
    OFFTHERAGGZ posts $1
    The button is in seat #7
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to DoctorSuckout [Ks 6c Jh Jc]
    DuraAce folds
    runnerunnerat folds
    lfb123 folds
    OFFTHERAGGZ checks
    DoctorSuckout calls $1
    ElDiablo444 calls $0.50
    french4711 checks
    *** FLOP *** [Js 9h Qd]
    ElDiablo444 checks
    french4711 checks
    OFFTHERAGGZ bets $4.50
    DoctorSuckout calls $4.50
    ElDiablo444 calls $4.50
    french4711 folds
    *** TURN *** [Js 9h Qd] [7h]
    ElDiablo444 checks
    OFFTHERAGGZ checks
    DoctorSuckout checks
    *** RIVER *** [Js 9h Qd 7h] [9s]
    ElDiablo444 bets $18
    OFFTHERAGGZ folds
    DoctorSuckout raises to $72
    ElDiablo444 has 15 seconds left to act
    ElDiablo444 has requested TIME
    ElDiablo444 raises to $148, and is all in
    DoctorSuckout calls $76
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    ElDiablo444 shows [Ac 8c Qh Qc] a full house, Queens full of Nines
    DoctorSuckout mucks
    ElDiablo444 wins the pot ($311) with a full house, Queens full of Nines
    DoctorSuckout adds $36.70
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $314 | Rake $3
    Board: [Js 9h Qd 7h 9s]
    Seat 1: french4711 (big blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 2: drtooth76 is sitting out
    Seat 3: DuraAce didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 4: runnerunnerat didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 5: lfb123 didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 6: OFFTHERAGGZ folded on the River
    Seat 7: DoctorSuckout (button) mucked [Ks 6c Jh Jc] - a full house, Jacks full of Nines
    Seat 8: ElDiablo444 (small blind) showed [Ac 8c Qh Qc] and won ($311) with a full house, Queens full of Nines
  2. mtstackin88 mtstackin88 is offline

    Costa Rica

    Posts: 1,174
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    Jul 27th, 2009 (7/27/2009 9:17pm) in reply to Twin C

    I play it the same
    5 1
  3. jasament jasament is offline

    Manhattan, NY
    United States

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    Jul 27th, 2009 (7/27/2009 9:21pm) in reply to Twin C

    just call the river, he shouldnt ever be bet/calling with worse than you here, so a raise doesnt do much for you. if hes really bad and is bet/calling with a worse hand then you can mayyyybe get away with a small value raise, but thats pretty thin. EDIT: if there is any sort of history between the two of you (ie you have raised him on a few occasions and he has folded), or if you have noticed that hes been calling a lot with bad hands, then you can raise. i just have a hard time making a call here when he shoves our raise as that can never be a value shove of the 4th nuts.
  4. bdluss bdluss is offline

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    Jul 27th, 2009 (7/27/2009 9:37pm) in reply to jasament

    Given how the hand played out, I don't know how he is calling the flop bet with two pair that became 9s full on the river. His play just doesn't make sense, calling a pot sized flop bet with top and bottom or bottom two in omaha. However, people don't always play great so there is a chance of this.

    So, what does his flop call mean followed by the lead out on the river. Well, he could have flopped a straight and is not trying to get some sort of value. Not a likely play, but you never know.

    He could have had a set on the flop. Something like QQQ or 999. Now after the river 9 both have you crushed. This play makes sense to lead out as he would either have the nuts, or the nut full house.

    I think your raise, especially deep stacked, is marginal. I would make this raise only if I felt the guy was a weak omaha player, and therefor 9s full is a good possibility. When you raised and he re-pops it, this is where unless the guy is a complete donkey, you need to save the $ and muck. There is no hand that you are beating.
     
  5. Deoxyribo Deoxyribo is offline

    Costa Mesa, CA
    United States

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    Joined: Jun 08

    Jul 27th, 2009 (7/27/2009 9:40pm) in reply to bdluss

    if u raise you have to fold when he comes over the top again

    my advice: raise/fold this pre, not a very strong hand

    on river i ether call or raise-fold, leaning towards call and thinking ill be good
     
  6. gguk2008 gguk2008 is offline

    United Kingdom

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    Jul 28th, 2009 (7/28/2009 6:27am) in reply to Deoxyribo

     
    Originally Posted by Deoxyribo View Post

    if u raise you have to fold when he comes over the top again

    my advice: raise/fold this pre, not a very strong hand

    on river i ether call or raise-fold, leaning towards call and thinking ill be good

    I think I lean heavily towards just calling on this basis. I absolutely hate raise-folding the 3rd nuts because we have such a strong hand. A play like this relies on him bluffing at the River, and even then we're not getting paid off.

    And I agree with raising pre, especially with dead money already in the pot.
  7. yellowhat yellowhat is offline

    Paris
    France

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    Jul 28th, 2009 (7/28/2009 8:05am) in reply to Twin C

    I think playing the hand preflop is ok cause you have the button, I don't mind a call. Not sure about your call on the flop, unless the people you are playing aginst are really bad, you could actually fold there, having a backdoor flush draw would help. Raising the rive is pretty bad especially for the full pot, and calling of the rest even worst unless the guy is a super payoff wizard.
     
  8. RonDworkin RonDworkin is offline

    Toronto
    Canada

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    Jul 28th, 2009 (7/28/2009 9:16am) in reply to Twin C

    Give hima range and then ask yourself what you expect to happen if you raise.

    You got 3 way action on the flop, no action on the turn, and now he leads into you. He is 1) bluffing, 2) had a set/2pair and now has a boat/quads, 3) has played a straight very poorly. If you raise he is folding his bluffs, straights, and *should* be folding his nines full a fair bit (but he may call - and a call could be right depending on history), and he will be raising his higher FHs and quads.

    So, you could be losing some value vs 9's full, but I recommend calling. And once he raises your raise your hand shrinks waaaaaaaay up to a bluff catcher in a spot he shouldn't be bluffing about ever.
  9. jasament jasament is offline

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    Jul 28th, 2009 (7/28/2009 10:48am) in reply to Twin C

    more i think about, more i think a raise/fold is probably profitable here. at this level 1) players will raise/call lighter and 2) will never reraise shove as a bluff. yes its frustrating to raise/fold but i think you can be missing out on slight value. i dunno, its close, calls definitely not bad.
  10. RonDworkin RonDworkin is offline

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    Jul 28th, 2009 (7/28/2009 10:58am) in reply to jasament

    the problem is that if raising is profitable, then we may be priced in to calling the shove once we raise (if raising is profitable here then our opponent may also be the kind to be "value" re-raising 9s full) - and as such some % of the time we will be inducing a big mistake from ourselves - we can either be folding the best hand in a huge pot, or calling off with the worst hand, both of which are big errors and, IMO, makes calling the preferred play.
  11. liljonny3000 liljonny3000 is offline

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    Jul 28th, 2009 (7/28/2009 11:04am) in reply to Twin C

    1st of all, limping K6JJ is bad... what are to hoping to flop? but i guess you have the button....

    I also prefer to fold flop aswell. not sure odds are right and dont think you get paid of when you hit J or 9, and ur not sure where you are if Q peels off.

    Turn is kinda wierd cos i still think made sterigth bets out, this is your time to bet and find out where you are at.

    river, depending on your opponent and ur reads on him, call is fine raise is only getting snapped of by QQ/99

    try not to overplay K6JJ in future
  12. RonDworkin RonDworkin is offline

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    Jul 28th, 2009 (7/28/2009 11:12am) in reply to liljonny3000

     
    Originally Posted by liljonny3000 View Post

    1st of all, limping K6JJ is bad... what are to hoping to flop? but i guess you have the button....

    I also prefer to fold flop aswell. not sure odds are right and dont think you get paid of when you hit J or 9, and ur not sure where you are if Q peels off.

    Turn is kinda wierd cos i still think made sterigth bets out, this is your time to bet and find out where you are at.

    river, depending on your opponent and ur reads on him, call is fine raise is only getting snapped of by QQ/99

    try not to overplay K6JJ in future

    I don't care for limping either here, I much prefer to raise the button - but with 150 blinds effective vs the BB and being on the button limping and playing a pot is not that big of a deal.
  13. jasament jasament is offline

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    Jul 28th, 2009 (7/28/2009 11:18am) in reply to RonDworkin

     
    Originally Posted by RonDworkin View Post

    the problem is that if raising is profitable, then we may be priced in to calling the shove once we raise (if raising is profitable here then our opponent may also be the kind to be "value" re-raising 9s full) - and as such some % of the time we will be inducing a big mistake from ourselves - we can either be folding the best hand in a huge pot, or calling off with the worst hand, both of which are big errors and, IMO, makes calling the preferred play.

    fair point, not sure how deep they are and too lazy to go back and look. if he or you dont have much behind then many times you will see him bet call or bet shove all in with a worse hand and then reload. players with not much chips will much more easily make crying calls or bad value all in shoves, making a raise worth it, imo.
  14. RonDworkin RonDworkin is offline

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    Jul 28th, 2009 (7/28/2009 11:28am) in reply to jasament

     
    Originally Posted by jasament View Post

     
    Originally Posted by RonDworkin View Post

    the problem is that if raising is profitable, then we may be priced in to calling the shove once we raise (if raising is profitable here then our opponent may also be the kind to be "value" re-raising 9s full) - and as such some % of the time we will be inducing a big mistake from ourselves - we can either be folding the best hand in a huge pot, or calling off with the worst hand, both of which are big errors and, IMO, makes calling the preferred play.

    fair point, not sure how deep they are and too lazy to go back and look. if he or you dont have much behind then many times you will see him bet call or bet shove all in with a worse hand and then reload. players with not much chips will much more easily make crying calls or bad value all in shoves, making a raise worth it, imo.

    they are playing about 150bb effective. if they were shorter then I am with you, the bad guy will be much less likely to call off / get the rest in with a wider range and we can raise a little more comfortably
  15. SharkInTheWater SharkInTheWater is offline Banned

    Orlando, FL
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    Jul 28th, 2009 (7/28/2009 11:56am) in reply to Twin C

    Raise preflop everytime.
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