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Playing a small PP with a slightly above average stack in a MTT....WWYD?

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  1. gianmarco gianmarco is offline

    New Orleans, LA
    United States

    Posts: 165
    Joined: Apr 05

    Mar 29th, 2006 (3/29/2006 7:58pm)

    It's been talked about a few times on here about how to play medium-size pocket pairs. The toughest time for me is when I have an average to slightly above-average stack. The easiest thing usually is to just fold, but there are days and tourneys where it's one of the "better" hands I get to see in a while. This is a hand that came up a while ago that I just looked at recently and would love to get some input on how some of you deal with this kind of hand with this size stack. What are some different ways to play this? Just fold preflop? Raise preflop? Lead out on the flop? Check the turn? Call the turn reraise? Reraise all in? I've thought about all of these options and I'm really not sure which is best or overall the most +EV. Thanks for reading and thoughts....

    Hand #30170756-147 at Wed9pm215-003 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
    Powered by UltimateBet
    Started at 08/Mar/06 22:57:03

    BluffMag is at seat 0 with 9195.
    pokerbuttt is at seat 1 with 3525.
    pinksock is at seat 2 with 9835.
    NxtWrldChamp is at seat 3 with 3905.
    dogballs1107 is at seat 4 with 3850.
    Shawn Rice is at seat 5 with 2910.
    Gorrance is at seat 6 with 9770.
    lovekayloo is at seat 7 with 3500.
    jamalbankhead is at seat 8 with 4880.
    muchaka is at seat 9 with 2390.
    The button is at seat 0.

    pokerbuttt posts the small blind of 100.
    pinksock posts the big blind of 200.

    BluffMag: -- --
    pokerbuttt: 7h 7s
    pinksock: -- --
    NxtWrldChamp: -- --
    dogballs1107: -- --
    Shawn Rice: -- --
    Gorrance: -- --
    lovekayloo: -- --
    jamalbankhead: -- --
    muchaka: -- --

    Pre-flop:

    NxtWrldChamp folds. dogballs1107 folds. Shawn Rice
    folds. Gorrance raises to 600. lovekayloo folds.
    jamalbankhead calls. muchaka folds. BluffMag folds.
    pokerbuttt calls. pinksock calls.

    Flop (board: 3s 5h Js):

    pokerbuttt checks. pinksock checks. Gorrance checks.
    jamalbankhead checks.

    Turn (board: 3s 5h Js 6h):

    pokerbuttt bets 450. pinksock folds. Gorrance calls.
    jamalbankhead raises to 1250. pokerbuttt folds.
    Gorrance folds. jamalbankhead is returned 800
    (uncalled).

    Hand #30170756-147 Summary:

    No rake is taken for this hand.
    jamalbankhead wins 3750.
  2. Rebuy Ron Rebuy Ron is offline

    Weed, CA
    United States

    Posts: 490
    Joined: Sep 05

    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 3:32am) in reply to gianmarco

    a checkraise or a checkfold on the flop is in order methinks, a small percentage of the time a preflop reraise would be in order, since you offered no reads on the players or insight into what kind of game conditions were prevelent, this might sound like I'm just shoooting in the dark

    edited to add*

    what apestyles said makes sense
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
  3. apestyles apestyles is offline Moderator

    Vancouver
    Canada

    Posts: 5,087
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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 3:43am) in reply to gianmarco

    Depending on the raiser sometimes I'm all in preflop. But I'm an agro donk... However, if I'm just calling I'm looking for a set and thats it - I check fold otherwise... I don't like just calling for a set though because you aren't really getting the odds for it with that stack...

    Also, betting 450 into that pot will almost never be effective...
     282 12 

    apestyles is an instructor at PocketFives Training . To get more of his advice and to watch his training videos, click here.

  4. LesW LesW is offline

    Boston, MA
    United States

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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 4:25am) in reply to apestyles

    I agree if he is Loose, CL or in position to steal ex. CO/Button I'll push preflop, but do it quickly so it doesn't look like a resteal. If he is solid might lay this down here, esp being covered.

    ..Les
  5. jamesdelray jamesdelray is offline

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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 10:14am) in reply to gianmarco

    Just go all in everytime you get a pair.

    JD
  6. Bullox Bullox is offline

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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 10:17am) in reply to jamesdelray

    preflop reraise might have been in order so you could isolate the hand
  7. Circpsycho Circpsycho is offline

    Carlsbad, NM
    United States

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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 11:01am) in reply to gianmarco

    Pretty strong table you were at there.
  8. LesW LesW is offline

    Boston, MA
    United States

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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 11:02am) in reply to Circpsycho

    how could you tell? Just curious

    ..Les
  9. Octan3_ipwnsippin Octan3_ipwnsippin is offline

    Winnipeg
    Canada

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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 11:07am) in reply to LesW

    Shawn Rice (westtexasman) and lovekayloo, both ranked players.
  10. pikpoket pikpoket is offline

    Beverly Hills, CA
    United States

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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 11:14am) in reply to Octan3_ipwnsippin

    yea, muchaka isn't that good
  11. apestyles apestyles is offline Moderator

    Vancouver
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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 6:37pm) in reply to pikpoket

    neither is bluff mag
     282 12 
  12. apestyles apestyles is offline Moderator

    Vancouver
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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 6:37pm) in reply to jamesdelray

    ur probably joking, but a squeeze play is really not a bad idea here...
     282 12 
  13. seal seal is offline

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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 6:41pm) in reply to gianmarco

    I've been playing with a small pp all my life ...

    What?? It's an abreviation for pocket pair??

    Nevermind.
  14. gianmarco gianmarco is offline

    New Orleans, LA
    United States

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    Joined: Apr 05

    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 6:42pm) in reply to gianmarco

    Well, even though this was a while ago, I still kind of remember the dynamics of this particular table. As a few pointed out, some solid players at this table. The original raisor to 3x the BB was pretty tight, if I remember correctly. But what I definitely remember was that jamalbankhead was very loose and very active with a very wide range of hands he was playing. He was in almost 1/2 the pots and lead out and raised almost everytime, with or without a hand. I actually wasn't worried about his reraise but moreso about Gorrance. At this point, it seemed someone was waiting to trap jamalbankhead and I was worried this might be the hand. If Gorrance had folded, I would have reraised all in on the turn.

    I'll kind of explain my thinking on this hand. I figured the 450 bet was at least big enough to chase 1 or 2 people out but also small enough to get away from in case there was a big reraise. What I didn't like was who the reraise came from (which I would have liked to call or reraise) and that there was one person left to act after me.

    But I'm actually curious, would some of you really consider reraising all in with that hand after a raise preflop from a relatively tight person, the loose call from jamal, and the BB left to act? Would any of you fold this preflop? Thanks for the replies so far.
    Thread Starter
  15. weatherman weatherman is offline

    NY
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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 10:30pm) in reply to seal

    LOL!!!
  16. nowicki2005 nowicki2005 is offline

    Portland, MI
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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 10:44pm) in reply to seal

    has anyone even see a seals small pp. wouldnt it get burned when they do all that sliding around
  17. lind0 lind0 is offline

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    Mar 30th, 2006 (3/30/2006 11:24pm) in reply to gianmarco

    I think the correct decision here is to fold pre flop. There are three factors that weigh heavily in the decision to fold. First, the "gap concept" (sklansky) states that you need a better hand to call your opponents bet with than he would require to open from his position. If the player was indeed tight, he would almost certainly require better than 7's to open the pot here and you can expect him to have you beat pre flop. Second, your chip stack is starting to get a bit low. You can only last about 12 more rounds with the blinds at this level before you would be blinded out, so every hand you play at this point will be critical. Committing 1/7 of your stack here is not a good idea. With this stack size you need to pretty much stop calling and either raise or fold. If your stack gets much lower you'll lose your ability to steal blinds without moving all in and you'll lose your ability to control your own destiny. The only time you might call is if you're trapping someone. Raising all in here would be the other option but it's not a good play given that the raiser is tight and betting from early position. The best case scenario would be a coin flip for all your chips. The third factor that pushes you toward a fold is that you will have a tough decision on the flop unless you hit your set. If the original raiser bets again on the flop (which he will most of the time if he's any good) you'll almost certainly have to fold. There will almost always be overcards to your sevens and you also have to contend with the other caller who might have anything since he's loose and active. You'll have bad position after the flop and have no idea idea where you're at in the hand when you're confronted with the decision to bet out or reraise or call. Taking a flop with this hand is a disaster waiting to happen. Make it easy on yourself and just fold.

    BTW, your play after the flop was fine. Checking is correct on the flop with that many players in the hand. The bet on the turn was good as well. You bet to find out if you had the best hand and his raise told you that you probably didn't. Nobody else had shown strength yet so you might have had the best hand at that point. The fold to the reraise was also probably correct. You might have folded the best hand, but you had no way of knowing without committing all your chips and hoping for the best. Fold it here preflop, then proceed to look for spots to steal blinds or pots with small raises and try to build back to a medium stack. Use position and pick on the tight players with medium stacks. Hope this helps.
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