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Please help -- game selection / Br Mgt. questions (HU/Cash players please)

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  1. outgunned1 outgunned1 is offline

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 3:11pm)

    Hello all. long time lurker here but I don't post much.

    I consider myself a top middle stakes hu sng player at the $50-100 level. But I don't have enough time to play enough games to profit long run. I am on an extended break right now after blowing another BR ..... I am cooling off, learning more, and re evaluating my game in preparation to actually use BR Mgmt. for the 1st time in my life.

    Cash games are not my forte, but I would say that I am solid. not a big winner, but definetly not a loser if I have money to handle the variance. I am definetly a better HU player though.

    Sngs, I'm average to slightly above average.

    I will be making a 1-2k investment into poker in a month, after my bills and whatnot are taken care of. with 1k, I think it would be best for me to play $20-35 HU games. However, I work from 6 am to 4:30 every day and only have time for about 2 hours a day of play and 10 hours on weekends.

    This is not going to give me a big enough sample size to achieve my goal, which is a 3-5% daily increase in my bankroll in hopes of rebuilding it.

    Do I need to lower my expectations and be more patient with the gains in order to reach my goal of turning 1k to 5k in 2-3 months using a 3-5% daily increase goal/expectation? Is this even achievable with a 55-60% win rate in HU?

    Is my sample size going to be way to low?

    I'm considering just multi tabling lower limit cash games within my bankroll because of my time constraints, but I my real love is HU games. However, I know that the easiest way to over come the time constraints and increase my sample size is to multi table.

    Maybe start with the cash games and then move to HU when I can play higher stakes? idk....

    I know i am leaving a lot out, but basically i'm just looking for guidance / input from p5ers.

    Thx!!
  2. Rocket Surgeon Rocket Surgeon is offline & brain scientist

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 3:19pm) in reply to outgunned1

    Why not just play HU cash then?
  3. outgunned1 outgunned1 is offline

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 3:31pm) in reply to Rocket Surgeon

    they are totally different beasts imo, and I feel like I am much stronger in HU SNG than HU Cash.
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  4. Rocket Surgeon Rocket Surgeon is offline & brain scientist

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 3:34pm) in reply to outgunned1

    Well HU SNGS and cash games are totally different beasts too, yet you said you are willing to make the switch and learn. Why does that same opinion not hold for learning HU cash?

    I'm just curious because it would seem that this would fit well once you learned. Plus there is a boatload of money to be made in HU cash.
  5. outgunned1 outgunned1 is offline

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 3:46pm) in reply to Rocket Surgeon

    Good point. Having read that, I would definetly be willing to learn it. Would it help me with my time constraints?

    How many hands would I need to play a day to achieve my goal / would it still be realistic?
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  6. Rocket Surgeon Rocket Surgeon is offline & brain scientist

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 3:53pm) in reply to outgunned1

    Cash game sessions never end... meaning, you can start and stop whenever you want. You are playing 1 lifelong session. This is why I very rarely play tournaments, because I have such a wild schedule that I can't guarantee a solid 6 hours of playing time.

    Anyways, the point is that it will absolutely help you with your time constraints. If I have to go somewhere i just quit. If i get some free time I start playing again. It's all up to me. I never chase losses. I never worry about how much I'm down in a session. If I'm playing well and I have time, I keep playing (regardless of winning/losing). If I start to play bad or if I have to do something, I quit, and live to play another day.

    Having said that, I don't think it's smart to have a "daily goal." In fact, I think it's absolutely terrible for psychological reasons. Just play well. Play to the absolute best of your ability every time you fire up a game. Maybe make a year or 2 year long goal instead. But don't resort to chasing after it. Again, cash games are all about playing a good, solid, aggressive game, and never EVER tilting. I feel like too many people have these types of short term goals that force them into a bad state-of-mind, and that will only lead to you being less successful than you can be.

    If you do everything you can to play your absolute best every time you play a session, and if you make it a priority to learn all you can about the game, then the profits will follow. Don't ever worry about daily goals. At least that's how I approach the game.
  7. outgunned1 outgunned1 is offline

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 4:07pm) in reply to Rocket Surgeon

    I agree totally that setting a daily goal is a horrible idea. My concept was more revolving around analyzing my results at the end of the month, and then hoping to see that my profit averages a small 3.0-5.0 increase in the long term. I agree with you totally that as long as you are playing well, the results are not relevant...unless they begin to affect you psychologically. Long term, is that type of daily percentage achievable in HU Cash games, 20 hours a week? I only take it into consideration because I have never actually used proper Br mgt..and I want to set some short term goals to keep me motivated and disciplined.
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  8. Rocket Surgeon Rocket Surgeon is offline & brain scientist

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 4:10pm) in reply to outgunned1

    5% compound daily increase? Big difference between compound growth and growth on your initial investment.
  9. outgunned1 outgunned1 is offline

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 4:16pm) in reply to Rocket Surgeon

    I think that would be more difficult. But I guess my question would be in regard to both.

    Ie - .5/$1000 =$50 a day

    or whatever the compound would be.
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  10. Rocket Surgeon Rocket Surgeon is offline & brain scientist

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 4:20pm) in reply to outgunned1

    Ok, so before you answer that question, you need to consider what stakes you are going to play and decide which game you are going to devote yourself to learning.

    Also, you need to consider "how important is this money to me?" What are my fiscal goals outside of poker and how will this help me achieve them?
  11. outgunned1 outgunned1 is offline

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 4:44pm) in reply to Rocket Surgeon

    The money is not that important in a personal fiscal sense (ie paying bills etc) .... but in terms of furthering myself in limits and profits it is very important. I'd probably devote myself to $25 and $50 NL cash games with occasional low buyin MTTs when I have time.
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  12. Rocket Surgeon Rocket Surgeon is offline & brain scientist

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 4:49pm) in reply to outgunned1

    So which type of cash games (hu, 6max, full ring) are you planning on learning? Also, on average how many hours do you expect to play?

    Sorry for all of the questions, but if you want accurate advice you need to give lots of info :)
  13. outgunned1 outgunned1 is offline

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 4:59pm) in reply to Rocket Surgeon

    nah its cool i really appreciate the help, the questions don't bother me at all.

    I'd probably stick to 6 max and HU. I'd expect to play about 20 hours a week.

    As far as the learning curve, I really won't have to "learn" the game untill I get to 2-4 NL, which I am only experienced in @ Brick n Morters in the 2-3 $300 NL which is really a 2-5 $300 NL.

    I'm assuming that normal solid play will more than suffice at the limits I intend on playing. I've been succesfull @ those without doing anything too elaborate or thoughtful. ;-)
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  14. Rocket Surgeon Rocket Surgeon is offline & brain scientist

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 5:09pm) in reply to outgunned1

    Well just as an example, if you 4 tabled 6-max 50nl, you would see about 350 hands per hour, i guess. If you win at 3bb/100 ($3/100 at 50nl), then you would sit at an average profit of $210 per week. At 4bb/100 ($4/100 at 50nl), then you would have an average profit of $280 per week, and so on.

    While you are right that the lower limits are easy to beat without doing anything complicated, I would suggest joining a training site. There are a lot more nuances to the game now that players are more educated, and if you really want to have a solid win rate you need to focus on keeping up with new styles and learning what other people are learning so that you can exploit it. Don't just assume that you know everything to crush a limit, because that thinking will get you no where... fast.
  15. outgunned1 outgunned1 is offline

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 5:22pm) in reply to Rocket Surgeon

    Agreed. thx for all the advice!!!
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  16. Rocket Surgeon Rocket Surgeon is offline & brain scientist

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    May 3rd, 2008 (5/3/2008 5:34pm) in reply to outgunned1

    No prob outgunned. Hopefully someone else can stop by and give you their 2 cents as well.

    Good luck!
  17. outgunned1 outgunned1 is offline

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    May 7th, 2008 (5/7/2008 4:05pm) in reply to outgunned1

    hoping to get a reply from jigsaw...bump
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  18. Call Me Jigsaw Call Me Jigsaw is offline

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    May 7th, 2008 (5/7/2008 5:05pm) in reply to outgunned1

    My blog has many useful articles on heads up play in general, bankroll management and is a great place to start - you should check it out.
  19. outgunned1 outgunned1 is offline

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    May 7th, 2008 (5/7/2008 5:57pm) in reply to Call Me Jigsaw

    i've read it, enjoyed it alot.

    I'd apprecaite your input on this specifically...
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